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I'm trying to nail down the details for my army, and I don't know really what options I'll get the most out of.

At this stage my main reasons for asking are so that I know how to go about assembling the models as I'm not going to be magnetizing just yet.

For the Razorbacks of course I'll be leaving the top hatches loose so that I can use them as just rhinos if needed. But everything else I have no clue about as I've never played 40k before so I don't know what weapons perform the best overall. So I'm asking Dakka for some help.

Tactical marines: Which heavy weapons are ideal/optimal overall?

Razorbacks: Worth taking? What options are optimal?

Land Raiders: take with assault termies? Which version? options?

Storm Talon: which weapons are best all around?

Land Speeders: weapon options? unit sizes?

Sternguard: unit size? weapon options?

Alright, since your other thread made me curious about what you were asking, here goes:

Tactical Marines: On the net, I see these typically armed with Missile Launchers or Multi-meltas. Cheap, versatile (in the ML's case) and deadly. With either you can threaten MEQs, and the ML provides more anti-horde capability while the MM provides a reasonable 24" anti vehicle bubble.

Razorbacks: The slightly killy-er bread and butter transport of any SM list, regardless of codex. For normal SM, Lascannon/TL Plasma was the typical loadout since it could put out the most anti-MEQ shots at close range, and had one extra weapon to avoid death-by-glancing in 5th edition. Now, they're a bit weaker due to the new vehicle rules, but still probably a solid choice if taken en masse. TL Las is often an alternative if you want them to be more focused on long-ranged vehicle suppression.

Land Raiders: Fill them with TH/SS terminators. There really isn't any other reason to bring them if you don't do this. C:SM don't have great assault units, but TH/SS termis make good counter-deathstar units and the Land Raider is the best deployment option C:SM has for them. Most people use the Redeemer since it needs to get close anyway. Many people like having the Multi-melta for synergy with Power of the Machine Spirit.

Storm Talon: Don't know, haven't used them or seen them used.

Land Speeders: Few people use these in C:SM as I recall. In other lists, they are often run as Typhoons with the double missile launcher. This makes them a pretty good, relatively cheap anti-vehicle squadron. Usually they're considered too expensive/flimsy to adequately support C:SM lists, but YMMV.

Sternguard: Most common tactic is to put them in a pod, have them drop in turn 1 and combi-melta the gak out of a dangerous enemy vehicle. With proper placement they can sometimes survive and go on to suppress infantry/MCs with their special ammo bolters, but usually they're a suicide unit. Talk to a Crimson Fists player if you want tips on how to play them normally. General rule of thumb is keep them cheap; it's too easy to go overboard on options and end up with a walking points-sink.

 Xca|iber wrote:
Alright, since your other thread made me curious about what you were asking, here goes:

Tactical Marines: On the net, I see these typically armed with Missile Launchers or Multi-meltas. Cheap, versatile (in the ML's case) and deadly. With either you can threaten MEQs, and the ML provides more anti-horde capability while the MM provides a reasonable 24" anti vehicle bubble.

Razorbacks: The slightly killy-er bread and butter transport of any SM list, regardless of codex. For normal SM, Lascannon/TL Plasma was the typical loadout since it could put out the most anti-MEQ shots at close range, and had one extra weapon to avoid death-by-glancing in 5th edition. Now, they're a bit weaker due to the new vehicle rules, but still probably a solid choice if taken en masse. TL Las is often an alternative if you want them to be more focused on long-ranged vehicle suppression.

Land Raiders: Fill them with TH/SS terminators. There really isn't any other reason to bring them if you don't do this. C:SM don't have great assault units, but TH/SS termis make good counter-deathstar units and the Land Raider is the best deployment option C:SM has for them. Most people use the Redeemer since it needs to get close anyway. Many people like having the Multi-melta for synergy with Power of the Machine Spirit.

Storm Talon: Don't know, haven't used them or seen them used.

Land Speeders: Few people use these in C:SM as I recall. In other lists, they are often run as Typhoons with the double missile launcher. This makes them a pretty good, relatively cheap anti-vehicle squadron. Usually they're considered too expensive/flimsy to adequately support C:SM lists, but YMMV.

Sternguard: Most common tactic is to put them in a pod, have them drop in turn 1 and combi-melta the gak out of a dangerous enemy vehicle. With proper placement they can sometimes survive and go on to suppress infantry/MCs with their special ammo bolters, but usually they're a suicide unit. Talk to a Crimson Fists player if you want tips on how to play them normally. General rule of thumb is keep them cheap; it's too easy to go overboard on options and end up with a walking points-sink.

I appreciate the response 100% and it answered my questions quite clearly. Good to know about the speeders since I haven't bought any yet.

Landspeeders can be good, but they are a precision tool, you find a certain role you need filled in your army, and equip the speeder to best suit that role. There are two effective builds I've seen, the double Multi-Melta Speeder, which serves as a fast answer to enemy armour. The idea is to send the speeder in to blow up something deadly and more expensive than it, and then if it dies on the next turn, well, you've already made back your points. The other build I've seen been effective is the Heavy Bolter/Typhoon loadout, which provides long range fire support. It is best at dealing with infantry, but with Krak missiles it is not useless against enemy armour either. The only other advice I can think of is to never give them an Assault Cannon, it nearly doubles the cost of the speeder and if you are close enough to fire it, you are close enough to get blown up the next turn. Heavy Flamer Speeders are narrow, but when dealing with hordes they can be quite potent.

 Aerethan wrote:


Tactical marines: Which heavy weapons are ideal/optimal overall?

Razorbacks: Worth taking? What options are optimal?

Land Raiders: take with assault termies? Which version? options?

Storm Talon: which weapons are best all around?

Land Speeders: weapon options? unit sizes?

Sternguard: unit size? weapon options?

I don't have a lot of 6th edition experience. I just want to get that out of the way. My responses will be from my 5th edition experience that I'll try to update for 6th edition. Fair enough? Also, I'm not the best 40k player you'll ever meet, but my painting is aces. Also, most of my buddies play Marines or MEQ armies.

Tactical Marines: What are you doing with them? Rhino rush? Drop podding mid-field or opponent's deployment zone? Camping on your objectives. Following your Close Combat guys to camp on the opponent's objectives? There's no easy answer. However, here's some general advice.
Drop Pods: I like the idea of tank hunting with a tactical squad in a drop pod. It's a way of getting at those pesky Leman Russ tanks or the charging Land Raider full of close combat guys. Combi-Melta Sgt, Meltagun, Multi-Melta (can snap fire on the deepstrike). However, Sternguard do this much more effectively. Alternatively, you can have these guys drop near a far objective. Give them some anti-MEQ or anti-armor guns. Plasma guns, combi-plasma, and a missile launcher isn't terribly expensive. Always take 10 tactical marines. At least pick up your free flamer or missile launcher.
Rhinos: Again, it depends. Are you charging up the middle, camping, something else? A mix is good. An anti-MEQ unit and an anti-tank unit.
Razorbacks: Combat squad them. Leave 5-man with heavy weapon in the back ranks and put a special weapon and sergeant with matching combi-special in the razorback.

Razorbacks: I play Black Templars, so I leave my super expensive razorbacks on the shelf. When I play standard marines, I sometimes toss in 1-2 razorbacks, but I always spring for the TL-Lascannon. Totally worth it. A heavy bolter isn't worth anything. If you only have the points for a razorback with HB, then just take a rhino and give some sgt a meltabomb.

Land Raiders: Sure, they're worth it. My BT LOVE the crusader pattern. That's the one I also use when I play codex marines, too. A regular landraider is a funny beast. It has 2 TL-Lascannons that can reach across the table, but it's also an assault vehicle. If you're moving around with it, it seems a waste of range to me. A crusader holds more terminators and can put out a ton of anti-infantry shots. I run a lot of terminators in my Templar lists. At 1500 points, you're eating up a lot of points, though. In 6th edition, with PW only being AP3, shooty terminators are a lot more attractive. I'm considering tossing some in a land raider, rushing forwards, hopping out, shooting the hell out of a unit, then assaulting what's left. Sounds fun!

Storm Talen: I have zero experience with it.

Land Speeders: I am a huge fan of a single multi-melta Land Speeder or a pair of assault cannon Land Speeders. I don't like other builds. Always remember that this is a glass cannon. Keep it cheap.

Sternguard. My absolute favorite unit from the space marine codex.
Tank Hunt: 5-6 men with melta/combi-meltas in a drop pod. Pick a tank, kill it reliably.
Anti-MEQ and TEQ: 5-6 men with plasma/combi-plasma in a drop pod. Pick a camping tactical squad, kill it reasonably effectively. A reasonable way of killing Terminators, too.
Mid-field campers/Front Line back-up: 10 men, mix of combi-plasma/melta, some bolters in a drop pod, Combat squad after landing.

My two stock tac squads are ML/F and MM/M, both in rhinos. If I field a third, it's normally PC/P on foot.

I'm not a huge fan of razorbacks. I like keeping my tac squads together. If you plan on combat squadding your tacs, they are cheep firepower.

I personally run a stock LR, with a 5 man terminator squad, 2LC, 3 TH/SS (lead by a chaplain). Partly because I'm a WYSWYG guy and that's what I own, but I also like the mix of CC weapons and the weapons on the LR. I don't think any of the vehicle options are worth it. If you do go with a LRC or LRR, I'd spring for the MM, just so you have something that can hurt tanks. The LRR is my least favorite option. If you are close enough to flamer things, they are about to be killed by your cargo. I'd rather be able to project firepower across the table better.

I'd go with one of the missile options for the talon.

I'm very fond of typhoon/HB speeders. MM or MM/HF are also good choices. Fly solo if you have the FA slots, squadron up if you have to. I run one or two in almost all my lists.

Sternguard depend on how you plan to use them. I'm an advocate of a full 10 man, some sort of CC toy for the sarge, and only 2 c-meltas in case you need to crack open a tank. Full combi loads, with all melta or half and half in a ten man squad make for a very powerful alpha strike in a drop pod. I prefer the sustained fire over the suicide drop, but that's a personal play style choice.

On magnets: If you aren't ready to go for them yet, poster sticky tac is an easy alternative. I used it for years to swap speeder and dreadnought weapons. It doesn't look as nice, but anyone can do it.

Three players in our group run C:SM. I played Blood Angels for a good while, which is similar. Here are my thoughts:

Tactical Marines:
· As Xca|iber said, Missile Launchers are a great option to take, especially since you get one for free. One came with the AoBR starter and one comes in the tactical marine box.
· One of our regular players typically takes a Lascannon, specifically to pop AV in the first couple of rounds. If it does its job, then the small point cost is easily worth it. The +1 to the vechicle/building damage roll is also nice.
· Multi-Melta is nice but it lacks range. Perhaps if you use a drop pod to get the Tac Squad in behind enemy lines to pop a big vehicle or Bastion, it'd be the better choice, but I prefer the Lascannon's range and extra strength.

Razorbacks:
· Heavy Bolter is the default choice. It's definitely not a bad choice, especially if you're in a bind for points. Wounding MEQs on 3+ isn't bad either. The 36" range allows you to stay back and fire. It's not my favorite choice and won't much against AV.
· Assault Cannons are nice anti-infantry. If you roll any 6s on the damage, the Rending ability is nice, especially for popping Terminators. However, that's completely luck dependent. The S6 is nice for being able to wound on a 2+. It's the well-rounded choice of the turret upgrades.
· TL Lascannon is your choice for anti-AV. Two chances to land the shot is definitely nice. It removes TEQ armor saves as well.
· Las/Plas: This is my default choice when I run a non-GK army with Razorbacks. It's great for TEQ and AV and you don't lose your turret if you suffer a weapon destroyed result. Granted, with HP, it's not what it was in 5th, but I still like it. With Gets Hot! glancing vehicles on a roll of 4+, it's nice to have the TL feature on the plasma.

Lots of Razorbacks can make for good target saturation. One strategy to consider is to buy the dedicated transport but not put the unit in it. This works well if you're taking Devastators or a 10 man unit. If you play terrain heavy games, then there's generally plenty of time to get your Razorback's unit across the table on foot to contest or claim an objective while your mobile weapon platform moves around to take out TEQs and AV.

You can always add a Hunter/Killer Missile to the razorback to give it a little extra damage.

Land Speeders:
These have only been used in one game that I've played, and I was the one using them. I ran the double Multi-Melta and used it to pop a vehicle or two. After that, it was focused down pretty quick. With only 2 HP, they are flimsy but can pack a big punch.

Here's the thing, you can use them like those dirty DE can (at least the way our DE player does it), especially in the The Scouring mission where Fast Attack are scoring. You can move and then turbo boost to get your vehicles across the board in a hurry. Not only do you get the full jink save, but in the Scouring, you'd be scoring. In a normal mission, if you're running a Land Speeder Storm with some scouts, you can turbo boost over, get the jink save, and have them disembark on the next turn. It allows you to cover a large part of the board to either claim or deny an objective...just remember that you have to disembark to count for either.

I don't have much experience fighting against the other stuff. I still have an unopened Land Raider and unassembled Land Raider Redeemer/Crusader that I've had for the better part of the year. I simply don't use them in my armies. That's a lot of points that can get glanced to death, even with AV14, with the new HP rules. Power of the Machine Spirit is nice, but there are better, cheaper ways to get the Lascannons on the board. I love the idea of Terminators pouring out of a Land Raider, but it's hard to justify, at least in our group. Every time one's been played, it's been focused fired until it's down.

People may disagree with me. That's perfectly fine. Our group plays things a little different than I read other people playing.

That's my $.02, YMMV, IMHO, and all of that stuff.

Everyone has covered everything pretty well, my 2 cents with Land Speeders.

I only take them in a Vulcan Army, they are way to fragile to risk not having that melta TL.

with the raider/termie combo yourgonna either run it around your opponents forcae and use it as a distraction (they will try too kill it first or) or run it streight forward and shove it down the throat of your enemy's best unit. as this combo will generally rip its head off and gak down its throat before shoving a grenade where the son dont shine. termies are that good.

the shrouded lord wrote:
with the raider/termie combo yourgonna either run it around your opponents forcae and use it as a distraction (they will try too kill it first or) or run it streight forward and shove it down the throat of your enemy's best unit. as this combo will generally rip its head off and gak down its throat before shoving a grenade where the son dont shine. termies are that good.

Thank you for necroing this thread, very informative read for a biggner! I suppose that all the information mentioned does still apply (at least until the new codex edition comes out)?

@Above: what is necroing?

Short for "thread necromancy". I'm guessing you've not had a look at the forum tenets yet, please have a gander:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/354859.page