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Can a unit who's character or IC is in a challenge attack models of a different unit in the combat if the character or IC is the only one in base contact with the other unit?

Example Diagram wraiths and d-lord are all one unit.
The wraiths are all in b2b with the trygon, the d-lord is b2b with trygon and termagaunts.
BRB page 28 says
Model in b2b or engaged with just one unit when it comes to strike must attack that unit.
A model that is in b2b or engaged with more than one enemy unit when it strikes blows can split its attacks freely between those units, declare how each model is splitting its attacks immediately before rolling to hit.

In my example, green wraiths are b2b with trygon but engaged (in 2 inches of dlord who is b2b) with termagaunts, yellow wraith is outside 2 inches.
since the dlord and trygon are in challenge does the green wraiths get to swing on the gaunts????????


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry. it was a tervigon. the Character MC. got my giant bugs mixed up when making the diagram.

I don't think the wraith can do anything. Unless the pile in move can bring them into b2b with the guants then no attacks can be struck. Though since the MC is in b2b wiht the wraiths the destroyer lord may be able to strike first(I assume he's I2).

We played it as they did not get to attack, but I dont believe they could make a pile in move to engage the gaunts as they were already b2b with a model

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I don't think the wraith can do anything. Unless the pile in move can bring them into b2b with the guants then no attacks can be struck. Though since the MC is in b2b wiht the wraiths the destroyer lord may be able to strike first(I assume he's I2).

The models involved in a challenge are considered to only be in Base to Base with each other. So the Trygon won't be subject to Whip Coils, and likewise the Wraiths aren't considered to be in B2B so can make pile in moves towards the gaunts (and vice versa.)

Somewhat related question: if two units, each with two characters, get into an assault, who challenges whom? This came up last night in a chaos on chaos battle. A Lord charged with his chosen into Abbaddon's squad of marines. Two ICs and two characters, should they have all challenged each other?

 keltikhoa wrote:
We played it as they did not get to attack, but I dont believe they could make a pile in move to engage the gaunts as they were already b2b with a model

But they are not in base contact with a model, as the models in the challenge "are considered to be in base contact only with each other."

So the wraiths must make a pile in move towards the gaunts.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Somewhat related question: if two units, each with two characters, get into an assault, who challenges whom? This came up last night in a chaos on chaos battle. A Lord charged with his chosen into Abbaddon's squad of marines. Two ICs and two characters, should they have all challenged each other?

Only 1 challenge can be active in a combat.

The "active" player gets to declare a challenge, if none is offered then his opponent can issue a challenge.

Chrysis wrote:

The models involved in a challenge are considered to only be in Base to Base with each other. So the Trygon won't be subject to Whip Coils...

From the FAQ
Page 44 – Canoptek Wraiths, Whip Coils.
Change the second paragraph to read “Any enemy model that is
in base contact with a Canoptek Wraith with whip coils at the
beginning of the Fight sub-phase counts their Initiative value as
1 until the end of the Assault phase, regardless of their actual
Initiative.”

If it is your turn, you get to choose the order of simultaneous events, yes? You could choose for the Challenge to happen after the coils. Wouldn't work on turn 2 as the challenge is already instated, but good for a single turn advantage.

The wording of the OP (to me anyway) implies that the challenge was already on-going.

If not then the owning player would choose the order (would have to be necrons in the picture as otherwise the tervigon made an illegal charge).

Happyjew wrote:
The wording of the OP (to me anyway) implies that the challenge was already on-going.

If not then the owning player would choose the order (would have to be necrons in the picture as otherwise the tervigon made an illegal charge).

How do you figure?

 Kevin949 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
The wording of the OP (to me anyway) implies that the challenge was already on-going.

If not then the owning player would choose the order (would have to be necrons in the picture as otherwise the tervigon made an illegal charge).

How do you figure?

Because if the trygon charged it would only be in btb with one model.

 don_mondo wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
The wording of the OP (to me anyway) implies that the challenge was already on-going.

If not then the owning player would choose the order (would have to be necrons in the picture as otherwise the tervigon made an illegal charge).

How do you figure?

Because if the trygon charged it would only be in btb with one model.

I see nothing that limits you to only being in b2b with the one model for the initial charger, you just have to GET into b2b with the closest enemy model. Shortest distance, yes, but with oval bases when you pivot it makes a large sweep.

BRB page 21 wrote:Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged, using the shortest possible route.

Find permission to contact more than one model.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
The wording of the OP (to me anyway) implies that the challenge was already on-going.

If not then the owning player would choose the order (would have to be necrons in the picture as otherwise the tervigon made an illegal charge).

How do you figure?

Because if the trygon charged it would only be in btb with one model.

I see nothing that limits you to only being in b2b with the one model for the initial charger, you just have to GET into b2b with the closest enemy model. Shortest distance, yes, but with oval bases when you pivot it makes a large sweep.

Well, as stated, the initial charger only has permission to contact one enemy model, the closest. With nothing that grants him any ability to contact additional models. So no 'pivot', no adjusting to hit additional models, etc.

The wraiths should be able to attack the gaunts because they are within 2" of a model that is in btb with the enemy unit.

The wraiths themselves are "engaged" as defined by the brb and should be able to swing at the gaunts who are also "engaged."
While the challenge is going one neither side can interfere with that combat but you still have two units locked in CC.

Just my two cents.

Except as it stands the Gaunts are not in b2b contact with anyone due to the Lord being in a Challenge.

Happyjew wrote:
Except as it stands the Gaunts are not in b2b contact with anyone due to the Lord being in a Challenge.

but they are within 2" of their Trygon and thus engaged.

Look at pg 23 for an example of what I mean.

They do not have to be in btb with each other directly, they just have to be within 2" of a friendly model, i.e. Trygon for the Gaunts and DLord for the Wraiths, that is in BTB, which is met by the two fighting in the Challenge.

Happyjew wrote:
The wording of the OP (to me anyway) implies that the challenge was already on-going.

If not then the owning player would choose the order (would have to be necrons in the picture as otherwise the tervigon made an illegal charge).

I just realized that the challenge has to be ongoing. If the Tyranids charged then the Trygon (or Tervigon) made an illegal charge. If the Necrons charged then the Dlord made an illegal charge.

It was an ongoing, the dlord and wraiths charged the tervigon, in the folowing tyranid turn the gaunts assaulted into the d-lord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said... can the gaunts successfully assault by going b2b with a person that is in a challenge?

 keltikhoa wrote:
It was an ongoing, the dlord and wraiths charged the tervigon, in the folowing tyranid turn the gaunts assaulted into the d-lord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said... can the gaunts successfully assault by going b2b with a person that is in a challenge?

No, as they cannot count as being b2b with that model (as per challenge rules). If that was as far as their charge could take them, it would be a failed charge, if they can go farther, they have to.