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Hey mates. I am planning on getting my Bretonnia Army started sometime this week ( hopefully, depends if I get paid or not ), and after looking through the forums and looking at army lists and battle reports, I have seen a number of different sized Knight units and at this point I am still debating on what is a good size to run them at the moment. Currently from looking around, a lot of people seem to like the idea of running:

* Knights Errant: Units of 12x to 15x, or smaller units of 6x to 9x

*Knights of the Realm: units of 9x to 12x

*Questing Knights: Units of 9x

*Grail Knights: Units of 9x

*Pegasus Knights: 1x unit of 3x seems to be the norm at the moment.

Anyways, Im just looking for tactical advice from other Bretonnia players and from people who have played against them and what have they observed seems to be the most effective way to run each Knight unit in 8th edition. I know its a big, noobish question however I like to plan ahead before I buy anything so the advice will be much appreciated.

For the KoTR units I like mine to be 9 strong including character (I prefer to have a damsel in the unit for the MR) as this makes the most of the amount of models that can attack following a charge, also larger units (12+) the footprint is too long for me and impacts on the ability to manouver the unit, also increases the size of the flank and opens up ambushed if you fail to break a unit on the charge.

Knight Errants when I field them (rarely)I like to take 8 with errantry banner and include a lord in the unit so again 9 strong. The Lord helps the unit stay in check for the Impetuous check and this unit goes hunting monsters

Questing Knights are the only unit that I feild that does not deploy in Lance formation, I like a unit of 10 deployed in two ranks of 5 for the full amount of S6 attacks, each round every round until they perish from combat

Grail Knights, I don't use but feel either 5 wide or in a lance of 6.

Pegasus Knights, 3 seems to be the best number unless you run with a Bretonnian lord on a Pegasus (as they are limited to a 0-1 choice otherwise) unless you pay serious points and go for a unit of 5, 3 will suffice do to the panic check you take from 25% casulties. (25% of 3 is the same amount of models as 25% of 4 for less points)

I would also seriously recommend that you look into a large Men at Arms unit with Prophetess and Pray Icon to have a large Tarpit unit that you can use to attempt to grind through enemy units that you don't want fighting your Knights (Black Orcs/Bestigor) and some Mounted Yeoman for redirecting.

I like the idea of using the Questing Knights that way for sure, however why no Grail Knights? Also, I have considered running lances of 12x because since there are so many horde units, the lances of 12x would give me a better chance to break an opponents steadfast, which would be good for KE units since they are cheaper, however KOTR in lances of 12x also seems like a nice idea. I have planned to run at least one horde of Peasant Men-@-Arms w/a Lvl. 2 Damsel, not sure of putting the Prophetess with Peasants is a good idea but Im willing to try it.

I don't really like running expensive regiments eavery unit in my army is at or around the 250-300 point mark, it means that I can run more units then my opponent a lot of the time and can combi charge to make up for the lack of numbers in the 1 unit (so 2-3 lances against 1 horde getting 24 attacks from just Knights).

I never rely on breaking steadfast on a charge, mianly because once you have experienced rubber lance syndrome (rolling multiple 1's to wound) you soon learn its not garunteed to happen.

Overkill is king especially with Bretonnians

Thanks for the advice, pretty much convinced me how to run my Knights, however I have a few noob questions if you guys dont mind answering:

*Is it better for the Prophetess or the Lvl. 2 Damsel to go with the Men-@-Arms?

* Plan to run 1x unit of 11x KE w/FC & the Erranty Banner, and my Lord would be with these guys to keep them in check. Good or bad idea?

* Besides that, I plan to run 3x to 4x units of 12x KOTR w/FC, along with 2x units of 10x Peasant Bowmen w/Braziers, with each units job to protect my 2x Trebuchet's, and finally 3x Pegasus Knights. Should I make room to try and field a unit of 8x Grail Knights instead?

Appreciate the help mates.

I prefer to run my Prophetess with my Men at Arms due to a couple of factors.
1, she has the prayer icon, giving the unit the blessing of the lady. Since the Knights already have this unless they lose it later it would be a wasted investment of points. or if running life has the Chalice to generate additional dispel dice
2. lore choice, I run life/heavens on my level 4 and beasts on my two 1/2's. Since Heavens is primarily ranged based (for me at least) it makes sense to keep her out of harms way. Since the damsels are lower level their job is to cast Wildform on the Knight units, also because the Knights are cavalry this makes their job easier due to the lore attribute.

Its definitely a good idea to have a character in the Errantry banner unit, unless you're confident that you can block charges with another one of your units, if it is not a legal charge (i.e skirmishing bowmen are in the way #hint hint#) then they do not need to test. If you don't like having your Lord in with the unit you can always revisit the list and make changes after 10 or so games as that will give you the chance to see how they perform.

I don't use Grail Knights instead preferring Questing Knights and Grail Relique but its really personal choice, like I say if you don't like the unit after 10 or so games drop them in favour of something else, its always nice to have a collection. I for example like ot have at least 1 of each type of unit in the book so I can field my collection in big point games (4-5k)

In 8th edition, due to calvary losing some power, most armies being updated, and bretonnia not being updated, Questing Knights are almost totally useless. Fragile, ASL, and in turn they end up being a sink for your regrowth spells, not to mention the newest FAQ nerfed ressurecting calv a little if I remember. So men at arms do much better, 1 strength less and may actaully hit something, though they die, 5points per model vs 28.

The grail relique is just too many points for what it does, maybe if they buffed it and made it give additional bonuses to your units like a warrior priest, cauldron of blood ect, I just cant justify the points other than it making a very beautiful centre peice model.

Grail Knights are almost, again, almost a requirement. Since they all have magical attacks, it help out in tournaments against VC, and WE especially. You dont want to get stranded fighting something you cant kill and inevitably dieing. If you dont take grails, you may considering making a choppy lord on a pegasus, and going with 2 units of 3 Pegasus knights.

Considering though that "Pegasus Stomp" lists are fairly amazing, just expensive to purchase all the models for. Since my list like that is 1 lord, and 4 heros on pegasus with 7 riders. It isnt the most powerful but it sure is fun to have 5 characters in your enemy deployment zone at the end of the first turn.

As for lance sizes it comes down to what you want. Overall the bigger the lance the more effective it is, end of story. The problem is it has a bigger flank area so you will need some chaff to the sides to keep it protected.

Grail knights are effective with 6, but I preffer 8 or 9 depending if I character joining. There are a lot of things that magical attacks can do wonders against, and all grail knight attacks are magical. This can totally ruin a day for woodelves or Vc's

I've heard many people say that it's Questing Knight's being able to hit at S5 for multiple rounds makes them the most favored in 8th, since The Grind is a big aspect of the game now.

And I've also heard Grail Knights have nearly fallen off the charts because of their price versus their damage output after the charge.

Ah... QK are S4. With GW they strike at S6 in 8th.

The Problem with Questing Knights is the point cost. They are 28 points a piece and do not fulfill a needed role.

The Problem with Grail Knights is that they are 1 wound models that are 38 points a piece.

The purpose of Heavy Cavalry is to break the enemy on the charge. In order to reliably do that you need to pack as much combat res as possible into the units.

In the case of Bretonnians, your best bets are large lances of Knights Errant or KotR supported by characters, a bsb, and banners.

I run a very scary unit of KotR and when I charge 90+% of units that can break, I break them 90+% of the time.

Of course that unit is 14 KotR with Full Command and war banner, 3 paladins (including a virtue of duty bsb) and my General.

With some magic, it is nigh unstoppable on the charge.

I would make it bigger and better, but it is 11.75 inches and if it were to be longer, I'd have to turn it at an angle during deployment.

This approach is not for everyone though.

The bottom line with Brets is that you need to go for an MSU style army or a couple gigantic lances supported by infantry and peg knights.

3-5 units of 9 to 12 knights are not going to be as effective.

Questing Knights and Grail Knights are just too expensive for what you get. Of the two, Grail Knights are much more useful, because of Ethereal Units and Immune to Psychology.

@Vulcan: you known, I thought great weapons granted +2 while mountd again, but I assumed other people knew more about cavalry than this ol' Skaven general.

@Atlantic: I dunno. For 8pts, you lose 1 armour and gain +2 strength in rounds after the charge.
For Grail Knights, you're paying 18pts for, +1WS, S, A, and magic attacks, right?
I feel like Questing Knights are providing more overall combat prowess/point.
Of course, with your idea of ending combat in one phase, Grail Knights do come out ahead. But...I dunno, even with your super-unit, you'd do...a little under 20 wounds. That's not counting extra attacks from magic and Vows, but as it stands, you can just barely get a unit of 50 dudes (a common sight nowadays) down to the same ranks as you to break 'em. I mean, that's great and all, but it could still go either way.

I think you are mistaken.

The General has 4 attacks.
The Paladin with Virtue of Knightly Temper and potion of foolhardiness has a minimum of 4 attacks, maximum of 8.
The other two paladins have 6 attacks.
The KotR get 11 attacks.
The Horses get 13 attacks.

That is a total of 38-42 attacks. You are getting +3 combat res for ranks, +1 for standard, +1 for it being the war banner, +1 for the BSB, and another +1 for the Virtue of Duty.

When Charging against a truly gigantic unit, you multi charge.

My 14 KE with full command and the Errantry Banner, supported by my level 4 with the Crown of Command fulfills that role nicely.

I've had that KotR unit charge all sorts of ridiculous crap and crush them in one fell swoop.

Sprinkle on some magic and look out. Boosted Savage Beast of Horros or a Boosted Pann's are the scariest, but Flesh to Stone, Wyssan's, Curse on the opponent, etc. are all nice.

I prefer to use a single big lance of K-E with a paladin, then several small-to-mid-sized lances of KotR and GK. Twin trebs provide the pressure on the enemy to advance, then a combo charge on the biggest thing I can break scores my victory. Then I avoid anything I can't beat and police up the stuff I can the rest of the game.