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Not trying to troll, but this is a serious question. Because everytime I ever see a C:SM thread pop up, someone will inevitably say "why use the vanilla dex? Codex Y does that so much better."

Termies or bikers? Dark angels

Close combat marines? Black Templar, Space Wolves, Blood Angels

Assault Marines? Blood Angels

Drop pods? Blood Angels

Tank army? Blood Angels (still trying to wrap my head around that one)

so on and so forth. Please bear in mind that if I got one of those wrong, it's mainly because all the MEQ codexes may as well be shades of grey/targets to me. I'm not super familiar with any of them. I was looking into running a Lamenter's army with the C;SM dex, but after seeing so many threads boil down to this, it scared me away for a while.

So, is there anything besides special heroes that the vanilla dex can do that none of the others can? Storm Guppy doesn't count

Even if there are differences, does it really even matter now with Allies? Everyone (except Tyranids) can just pick and choose between multiple codices anyhow, so if vanilla does have something special you can just run a more powerful SM codex like SW and ally with vanilla for whatever they have.

Space Marines do pure bikes better than Dark Angels, they're cheaper and have combat tactics which works pretty well with the bikes movement, along with not being fearless of course.

Other than that, yes those other chapters do the various specialities better than Space Marines, but then (with the exception of Black Templars) Space Marines came out first and were the prototype for later 'dexes which in turn gained "knobs" to make them Marines +1.

However, for those of a slightly stubborn bent, the Marine dex impresses in its shear lack of +1edness. No one is going to play against Marines and accuse them of cheese. They're a well rounded army that does most things adequately, and very little poorly.

Because they aren't outstanding at anything you're under no pressure to play them in a particular way. One game you might want a drop pod army, which marines will do. The next you might want a bunch of guys in Rhinos, and again Space Marines will do that. Of course you're not going to be building an assault heavy army with them, but then assault heavy armies are going to be disadvantaged in 6th edition anyway.

Basically they're mediocre, and that's okay.

The OP kinda gets it on the question. While other codicies do other things better, the SM are very flexible and hit a nice balance. I do just fine with them. Their bikes are great and they get a few toys the specialists don't.

 Lobukia wrote:
The OP kinda gets it on the question. While other codicies do other things better, the SM are very flexible and hit a nice balance. I do just fine with them. Their bikes are great and they get a few toys the specialists don't.

So their strength is essentially "jack of all trades, masters of none"?

Ok, just wanted to see if there was anything they did better than any other codex could.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
The OP kinda gets it on the question. While other codicies do other things better, the SM are very flexible and hit a nice balance. I do just fine with them. Their bikes are great and they get a few toys the specialists don't.

So their strength is essentially "jack of all trades, masters of none"?

Ok, just wanted to see if there was anything they did better than any other codex could.

They do mass meltas and flamers better than other space marines due to Vulkan

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
The OP kinda gets it on the question. While other codicies do other things better, the SM are very flexible and hit a nice balance. I do just fine with them. Their bikes are great and they get a few toys the specialists don't.

So their strength is essentially "jack of all trades, masters of none"?

Ok, just wanted to see if there was anything they did better than any other codex could.

That's it in a nutshell.

Why doesn't Stormtalon count? It's unique to codex marines and doesn't have an equivalent. Thunderfire Cannons are also unique, and with the buffs to artillery, are worth the points.

They have more versatile bikes, they have the best assault terminators, and the biggest drop pods.

If you just want power armor in rhinos/razorbacks, Codex marines are mostly lacking (Vulkan notwithstanding). If you want the special stuff, you have a reason to pick them. They also get Tau as battle brothers, which at least has a chance of being a benefit.

Reason stormguppy "didn't count" was because that didn't feel like something that you can build a main army theme around. You can build an army that makes heavy use of drop pods, heavy use of bikes, etc.

The stormguppy seemed like something extra thrown in. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong about this though.

Combat Squads is more a focus of this book than other. ATSKNF + Combat Tactics is fantastic now.

Vanilla also has a fair number of unique toys and units; Thunderfire, Null Zone, Ironclad, the cheapest TH & SS terminators, Vulkan, Landraiders and Drop Pods with higher capacity, etc.

People mostly say "use this codex instead" when they see someone focusing a list on something a different book does better.

They do veterans better, Sternguard are probably at their best with the Codex.

Sternguard + Pedro are awesome. And Pedro also has great synergy with terminators.

The C:SM is currently the best all-rounder codex in my humble opinion. They can do EVERYTHING well. Not fantastic, just good. When the new codex eventually arrives for 6th... Watch out! We're all going to be accused of cheesiness and will have to change to Space Wolves or Grey Knights to be polite.

 Citizen Luka wrote:
The C:SM is currently the best all-rounder codex in my humble opinion. They can do EVERYTHING well. Not fantastic, just good. When the new codex eventually arrives for 6th... Watch out! We're all going to be accused of cheesiness and will have to change to Space Wolves or Grey Knights to be polite.

I'm actually in no hurry for a new SM codex. I hope they do Tau, Eldar, and Nids before SM (though I doubt it). Right now the UM and CF armies I run are doing better than ever and my bikes will most likely switch back to DA soon. I'd rather see the other 'dexs elevated to revive the non-IoM forces than the rich getting richer. BTW: I'm still sure BT get rolled into C:SM instead of keeping their independent 'dex.

Lysander, Pedro and Vulkan.... Or a fluffy ultramarines army... It's a good, well rounded codex, kind of like IG. They don't have a lot of flashy toys, but they have some good solid units, and plenty of plastic kits.

If I was going to start a new army, it would be a Word Bearers army, played as Space Wolves. There's so much alternative modelling to be done with them.

Also, apart from what mannahnin said, the thing that sticks out the most for me is that vanilla SM is still the shootiest variety of SM. Yes, I know that longfangs exist, as do fast baal predators, but look at it comprehensively.

SM have bolters. Good, cheap bolters with things like combat tactics that support it. Go look at BA lists and see how many times they bring bolter-armed models. Show me a SW list that doesn't revolve around hunters or things that try to make use of the close combat buffs. Hell, you can even take lysander to make bolters better straight-away.

But that's not where it stops. Vanilla SM can spam multimeltas better than any other army in the game. You can put them friggin everywhere from tac to dev squads. MM spam is certainly unique to space marines. Of course, you can also take a special character that makes them twin-linked.

And really look at the special characters too. Calgar allows you to always choose to pass or fail a morale test - you don't really need to bother with rolling. That's really useful for a shooty-based army (not to mention his ultrabolters). Vulkan makes lots of shooting twin-linked. Tigurious clearly favors shooty armies, while Antaro takes a tank and makes it shoot better. Lysander makes bolters shoot better. Pedro makes one of the best shooty units in the game scoring so that you can take a lot more of them (and also comes with his own brand of ultrabolter). Even choppier options like Cato are STILL shooty, what with being able to give anybody tank hunters, etc.

They do cheaper shooty bike lists. They do cheap, shooty terminators. They have shooty scout bikes. They can take dreadnought-only lists, and they're all shooty. And then add things already mentioned, like TFCs and hurricane bolter dreads, etc. etc.

All the other SM codices erode their shooting abilities in order to gain better close combat abilities, among other things. It's easy to look at all of the little different things that other SM codices do better, but it's also easy to forget that all of the other ones fail to do the one most important thing the best. That's what vanilla SM are there for.

Blood Angels have almost the same shooting options, limited only by the increased price they pay for Rhino based tanks, but that makes them fast which benefits their shooting. Every unit Space Marines have which can take multi-meltas, Blood Angels have too.

The whole point of Grey Hunters is that they give you more or less the same shooting power as tactical squads, with the addition of some close combat ability while generally paying less.

Calgar is expensive, for his price you can buy a Librarian and a Tactical Squad. Vulkan boosts melta, flamer and thunder hammers. Only the multi-melta is a real ranged option as all other melta and flamer weapons are under 12 inches range. The points paid for him would be better spent buying more Marines.

Lysander is expensive, two librarians worth and sure, he means you'll hit slightly more often with your strength 4, AP5 shots, however his strength is in melee, which the rest of the list doesn't do that well.

Sternguard are very effective, very flexible squads, but they do cost almost twice as much as tactical squads and die as easily making them far more fragile. Making them scoring is not worth the points that you have to pay for Kantor. Meanwhile Blood Angels can take them too, for exactly the same cost.

If you load up on Tactical Squads you'll lack the tools to deal with targets that laugh at bolters. With a Tactical Squad, 190 points gets you a plasma gun, a lascannon and eight bolters. As a comparison 5 Chosen can give you five plasma guns for 165 points. 5 Sternguard can give you two plasma guns and three combi-weapons for 160 points (or five combi-weapons for 150).

Even bikes (which I love) supply two plasma and a multi-melta at 195 points for a minimum sized troop choice. They do save points by not requiring a transport to get anywhere, but poison spam kills them dead.

Space Marines are no more shooty than many other Marine Codexes. They ended up in the shooty pigeon-hole because compared with the other Codexes that was the only thing they could compete on.

They remain a mid tier Codex. Good, but not outstanding in any particular area.

The point isn't to nit-pick every possible ability of one codex and compare it to another. I'm sure you can take any two codices and make either one look better than the other by how you spin it.

In the real world, regular space marines are shootier than other versions of space marines. End of.

I've seen gunline shooty SM, and I've seen drop pod shooty SM, and I've seen bike shooty SM, I've seen foot and mech shooty SM. I've seen shooty SM. Every other version of space marines tries to awkwardly balance CC and shooty, and with the exception of BA (and even then, it was almost all chopping), I haven't ever seen it end all that particularly well.

Naysay as much as you want, I've yet to see an army list or a battle report where a BA or SW or BT or DA player outshot a vanilla marine player.

Who cares if the average SW/BA army is more focused on assault? The point is that almost all of C:SM's options are either too expensive to be competitive, or found in other books. If you want to you can make shooty SW, shooty BA, etc, and do it just as well as C:SM, if not better. The only real advantage C:SM has is bikes as troops.

I am a big so called vinnalla marine player. It has a broad spec of abilliteis which allows you to fit almost every game scenario. Although you can't feild large numbers of close combat troops the ones they do have are good if used right. From vetrans to scouts that easliy take out amrour, to fast moving units that can sweep through almost what they feel like taking on, to the battle brother that can stand fast and take hell while holding a line (even in the open), I think most people just get board of seeing of them, as large number of people use them, which I think is down to easy to use they are and how well they fit different game types.

Vanilla marines have the single most important ability around.
Adaptability.
I usually run a sternguard heavy list with Pedro although I've been messing around with Tactical Squads. Everyone complains about how they suck, but nobody really tries to play at their strengths. You hit them hard, you hit them fast and you use your armor to protect against the now future retribution. They are not the army of just rush the enemy, they are the army of choosing battles, which is also doubly important with Drop Pod lists.

 AegisFate wrote:
You hit them hard, you hit them fast and you use your armor to protect against the now future retribution.

But how exactly do they do that better than the other marine armies?

 Peregrine wrote:

 AegisFate wrote:
You hit them hard, you hit them fast and you use your armor to protect against the now future retribution.

But how exactly do they do that better than the other marine armies?

Most of the time it involves the TH/SS terminators, land raiders, and predator tanks. One of the few things I still see Vanilla used for besides veterans is the use of actual tanks that aren't just razorspam (BA, GH)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Most of the time it involves the TH/SS terminators, land raiders, and predator tanks. One of the few things I still see Vanilla used for besides veterans is the use of actual tanks that aren't just razorspam (BA, GH)

I don't really see how that makes any sense given that BA have the same TH/SS and Land Raiders, as well as fast Predators and cheap (and better) assault marine Razorbacks that go well with those Predators instead of paying the tactical tax. What exactly does C:SM offer to this army concept that you can't get elsewhere?

I'd argue to the death that the Vanilla Space Marine codex is the most balanced in the game. It doesn't have GK silliness, but neither is it as dire as Tau, BT etc. It's a great template for balanced 40K armies.

Codex Space Marines has special characters that change the entire army. Not just a few, but over 30. No other army can be as different from itself as Codex Space Marines.

Assault Squads, Terminators, Bikes as Troops, close combat Tactical Marines, or scoring Sternguard? Done.

Army wide Rage, Preferred Enemy, Fleet, Stealth, Feel No Pain, or Furious Charge? Also done.

Codex Space Marines are the make-up-your-own-army army.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Codex Space Marines has special characters that change the entire army. Not just a few, but over 30. No other army can be as different from itself as Codex Space Marines.

Assault Squads, Terminators, Bikes as Troops, close combat Tactical Marines, or scoring Sternguard? Done.

Army wide Rage, Preferred Enemy, Fleet, Stealth, Feel No Pain, or Furious Charge? Also done.

Codex Space Marines are the make-up-your-own-army army.

Most people don't tend to include FW in their assertions, though I do love those SC's.

 Ailaros wrote:

In the real world, regular space marines are shootier than other versions of space marines. End of.

I've seen gunline shooty SM, and I've seen drop pod shooty SM, and I've seen bike shooty SM, I've seen foot and mech shooty SM. I've seen shooty SM. Every other version of space marines tries to awkwardly balance CC and shooty, and with the exception of BA (and even then, it was almost all chopping), I haven't ever seen it end all that particularly well.

Naysay as much as you want, I've yet to see an army list or a battle report where a BA or SW or BT or DA player outshot a vanilla marine player.

This is just silly. Yes, you get more CC units in BA and SW armies because you get better CC units to choose from. But they still have equal or better shooty options than the vanilla marines. BA are literally SM +1. The book is copypasted vanilla book with extra cheese on top. They get pretty much all the shooty options the vanilla marines get, and often cheaper. And we already know SW gets the best shooty unit in the game, the longfangs.

Let's imagine there are two IG armybooks. Regular Imperial Guard and Valkyrian Air Cavalry. The lists are otherwise identical, except the regular guard don't have fliers, whereas Air Cavalry gets Valkyries and Vendettas. What you said about SM is like saying that in this situation the regular IG is the best tank army.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Most of the time it involves the TH/SS terminators, land raiders, and predator tanks. One of the few things I still see Vanilla used for besides veterans is the use of actual tanks that aren't just razorspam (BA, GH)

I don't really see how that makes any sense given that BA have the same TH/SS and Land Raiders, as well as fast Predators and cheap (and better) assault marine Razorbacks that go well with those Predators instead of paying the tactical tax. What exactly does C:SM offer to this army concept that you can't get elsewhere?

Termies are cheaper in C:SM..... A unit of 8 TH/SS termies in land raider crusader with MM from BA cost 620 the same unit from SM cost 580. So they aren't really the same.

Peregrine wrote:I don't really see how that makes any sense given that BA have the same TH/SS and Land Raiders, as well as fast Predators and cheap (and better) assault marine Razorbacks that go well with those Predators instead of paying the tactical tax. What exactly does C:SM offer to this army concept that you can't get elsewhere?

But look at it practically. Yes, in theory BA have access to some of the same stuff, but that doesn't matter if it never actually happens. I can count the number of times I've seen a BA player field a lascannon land raider on zero fingers.

Crimson wrote:Let's imagine there are two IG armybooks. Regular Imperial Guard and Valkyrian Air Cavalry. The lists are otherwise identical, except the regular guard don't have fliers, whereas Air Cavalry gets Valkyries and Vendettas. What you said about SM is like saying that in this situation the regular IG is the best tank army.

... because, practically speaking, it would be. Especially if the tanks in the air cav codex cost more, and didn't have access to special characters to make them better.

If you have a codex wherein nobody actually takes that kind of unit, then it isn't, in the real world, the best at it. I mean, it could easily be argued that IG is the best sniper army in the game because of ratlings, but as nobody actually takes ratlings, then IG isn't actually the best sniper codex.