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So I love Tzeentch did Chaos Daemons all Tzeentch flying circus so now of course i am trying to jump onto CSM here's what i have so far:


HQ

Ahriman

Sorcerer
+Mark of Tzeentch
+2 lvls
+Spell Familiar


TROOP

4 Thousand Sons
1 Aspiring Sorcerer

+ 5 Thousand Sons


4 Thousand Sons
1 Aspiring Sorcerer

+ 5 Thousand Sons

4 Chaos Space Marines
1 Aspiring Champion

+10 Chaos Space Marines
+Icon of Fearless

HVY

2 Obliterators
+Mark of Tzeentch

2 Obliterators
+Mark of Tzeentch

4 Havocs
1 Aspiring Champion
+4 Autocannons

FAST ATTACK

4 Raptors
1 Raptor Champion

+2 Meltas


HelDrake

TOTAL : 1842

So here are my basic ideas for this army,

Ahriman is used because hes got 4 lvls but mainly has the Master of deception trait stuck on. So i can infiltrate those raptors away 18, fly 12, then melta for First blood on a vehicle or throw up squads of thousand sons since there slow to the middle of the table to cause problems early then walk instead. He sits with the 15 CSM

The Sorcerer sits with the Havoc's, goes 2 lvls onto the telekinesis table for the invisibility trait for them, while they deal with light armor oblits start on table to deal with heavier armour

Raptors are ambush unit or the one sacrificed for first blood, and the Heldrake is there to get those power armor suckers in cover or burn a squad of guys in the back since it flys 36" and fires 12" + template away

I'm Still trying to figure out different ways to make it work, i like my Heavy Slots but i want some opinions should i blob the thousand sons? try to fit cultists and get rid of the raptors, is Ahriman worth it i really like him.

Attack!

If Ahriman is sitting with the 15 csm they don't need the icon to give them fearless as Ahriman is fearless and will confer it onto his unit.

The only big problem I see is that it is a very slow list and this is gonna be a huge problem vs some armies (a lot, in fact), otherwise I may like it.

Just a couple of question however:
1) Does the Thousand's Bolters are still AP3?
2) Does the MoT on Obliterators give them a +1 on the Inv. save?

I don't have the new CSM yet...

Yes for the 4+ inv on the oblits and yes they are still AP3 please tell me what armies i cant fight against i need to know to adjust

the sorcerer has a 6+ invul.... throw him a sigil so he has a 3+ invul

Even if a very resilient list (almost everybody with 4+ inv. save you will hugely suffer vs fast moving (longer-range than your) armies like the paper-venom spam, scythes+barges spam, Eldars bikes coucil, any IG list, etc... In fact even shooty Orks and Nids will put you in dangerous situations.

In general, to keep a solid base, I'll keep 2 units of Havocs with icon (give them some naked marine to absorb wounds) and 2 Helldrakes.

From this base you'll may start building your list.

well if your getting havocs go so that they arnt just 5 man, make the 10 man so they wont just get pot shoted to death

since your going only 10 mans for the "sons" give them rhinos so they can actually move faster

the 15 chaos boys have the vengeance thing they don't need it if airman is there, also if your upgrading them at all since they are your things to def airman give them all cc weapons and bolters with pistols, also give the champion 2 power weapons ( very on what your fighting ) so airman doesn't auto i challenge you, last thing give them a flamer or 2

obliterators, i would personally not use them but what ever you like

5 raptors with just 2 meltas...if they go out then their goes your best vehical busting thing other then obliterators, give them nurgle if your going all out for these 5 units but just be careful with them, they seem to squishy

heldrake in my opinion is awesome, it can bust light vehicals and light flyers by ramming it, and it can burn the people inside. but this thing is going to be a main anti infantry killer, give it the flamer so it can pop a rhino and burn the people inside

al and all i like it, its not very competitive but it will work well ageist just the casual fight

If not obliterators then more Havocs with what upgrades? missles or more autocannons the oblits i like cuz there all around where as getting 4 lascannons is pricey

You need to make the oblits MoN. toughness 6 makes you immune to instant death. Far more relevant than a 4+ inv.

You should be in cover anyways and with any serious cover they can have a 4+ without needing the mark. MoN all the way for oblits.

I agree with ahriman giving fearless, skip the banner and save points.

Yes the bolters are ap3.

You need rhinos for the t sons. Yes they are resilient but you need movement or you will be blasted way before you get to double tap those pretty bolters. Also with slow and purposeful you cant run or overwatch. Meaning out in the open on foot is too dangerous.

 Icelord wrote:
You need to make the oblits MoN. toughness 6 makes you immune to instant death. Far more relevant than a 4+ inv.

You should be in cover anyways and with any serious cover they can have a 4+ without needing the mark. MoN all the way for oblits.

I agree with ahriman giving fearless, skip the banner and save points.

Yes the bolters are ap3.

You need rhinos for the t sons. Yes they are resilient but you need movement or you will be blasted way before you get to double tap those pretty bolters. Also with slow and purposeful you cant run or overwatch. Meaning out in the open on foot is too dangerous.

Except MoN wont make them T6, they'll be T5. I think what he's trying to do here is make a more themed Tzeentch list.

I would definitely suggest Rhino's for the TS's, 6th ed hasn't made them any more or less resilient than they were, as much as some peoe would try to convince you otherwise.

As others have said, skip the fearless icon on the CSM. What is your goal for them? Backfield obj sitters? Then maybe add a lascannon or other long range heavy weapon to help add some more long range punch.

Raptors might work well for what you're trying to accomplish, but they're too expensive for a throw away suicide squad. Bikes are tougher & might be able to achieve the same goal & still be able to soak some fire. Obviously I don't know what your meta is so YMMV.

~Vryce

No infiltrating the Raptors. Disagree on Rhinos for Tsons. Use Master of Deception.

Footslogging Thousand Sons are fine.

Edit: Had a derp

SupremeOverL0rdVect wrote:
If not obliterators then more Havocs with what upgrades? missles or more autocannons the oblits i like cuz there all around where as getting 4 lascannons is pricey

well if you really do get rid of obliterators then give them the flak missiles and have the sargent run the AA defence line and any air the opponent has will die

 Vryce wrote:

 Icelord wrote:
You need to make the oblits MoN. toughness 6 makes you immune to instant death. Far more relevant than a 4+ inv.

You should be in cover anyways and with any serious cover they can have a 4+ without needing the mark. MoN all the way for oblits.

I agree with ahriman giving fearless, skip the banner and save points.

Yes the bolters are ap3.

You need rhinos for the t sons. Yes they are resilient but you need movement or you will be blasted way before you get to double tap those pretty bolters. Also with slow and purposeful you cant run or overwatch. Meaning out in the open on foot is too dangerous.

Except MoN wont make them T6, they'll be T5. I think what he's trying to do here is make a more themed Tzeentch list.

I would definitely suggest Rhino's for the TS's, 6th ed hasn't made them any more or less resilient than they were, as much as some peoe would try to convince you otherwise.

As others have said, skip the fearless icon on the CSM. What is your goal for them? Backfield obj sitters? Then maybe add a lascannon or other long range heavy weapon to help add some more long range punch.

Raptors might work well for what you're trying to accomplish, but they're too expensive for a throw away suicide squad. Bikes are tougher & might be able to achieve the same goal & still be able to soak some fire. Obviously I don't know what your meta is so YMMV.

~Vryce

I apolozies as I hit the wrong number on my tiny iphone screen. I meant 5 which makes them very hard to kill from instant death.

I also agree that raptors are expensive for a throw a way. You could always take 3 terminators with combimeltas for like 105? (need to double check that total) and deepstrike them. Just an idea.

Umm I might be wrong...

But from what I read in the new Codex:CSM, Obliterators and maulerfiends have fleshmetal armor, not terminator armor.

In the armory section it then lists right next to each other fleshmetal conferring a +2 armor save and Terminator armor doing +2 armor save, AND ++5 invuln

Am I wrong in thinking that Obliterators do not naturally have an ++ save anymore?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or does Daemon give them invuln saves naturally?

 Koski wrote:
Umm I might be wrong...

But from what I read in the new Codex:CSM, Obliterators and maulerfiends have fleshmetal armor, not terminator armor.

In the armory section it then lists right next to each other fleshmetal conferring a +2 armor save and Terminator armor doing +2 armor save, AND ++5 invuln

Am I wrong in thinking that Obliterators do not naturally have an ++ save anymore?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or does Daemon give them invuln saves naturally?

They have the rule Daemon in the big book which grants a 5+ inv.