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Hey everyone, I've got a 2200 tournament coming up featuring a fairly wide variety of armies and opponents. I expect quite a few WoC, Lizardmen, Empire, Dark Elves, Ogres, VC and TK and I'm just ironing out my list as I try to assess possible threats and their solutions. Let me know what you guys think and if you would change anything and why.

Thanks.

2191
__________________________________________305
Archmage 305
-lv4
-folariath's robe
-lore of light

*Close and personal-ish build for bubbling goodness and getting good range on spells, goes with w/e fits the situation.

__________________________________________168
Noble 168
-bsb
-armor of caledor
-dawnstone
-great weapon

*Typical, not sure much needs to be said about this bro, goes with with either the lions or seaguard/spears.

__________________________________________591
Seaguard*28 371
-fc
-banner of eternal flame

Archers*10 110

Archers*10 110

*I could take 39 spears instead of the seaguard, or bunk down to 25% min and take some more SM's/magical items. The two small archers units I like to kill chaff, weak flankers/flyers, anything that fears 10 S3 standing shots and S3 ASF really. In a pinch they're good flankers/multi-purpose.
__________________________________________827
White Lions*29 515
-fc
-banner of sorcery

Swordmasters*10 156
-musician

Swordmasters*10 156
-musician

*Lion block is a proven piece of technology that I plan to place opposite anything extremely large/killy/large and killy/high ASv/shooty, my swiss army katana-chainsaw. The SMs are for flanking with the seaguard, and/or archers/lions/eachother, I always love 10 of these guys, small footprint, plan to launch at extremely nasty low defence targets.
__________________________________________300
Bolt Thrower 100

Bolt Thrower 100

Great Eagle 50

Great Eagle 50

*Eagles are standard procedure, love em. Bolt Throwers, with the amount of 1+ and 2+ armor potentially being brought to the table I feel at least 2 is useful if not mandatory for me.


So, lay it out, chop it up, let me know.

-Jon

BronzeJon wrote:
Hey everyone, I've got a 2200 tournament coming up featuring a fairly wide variety of armies and opponents. I expect quite a few WoC, Lizardmen, Empire, Dark Elves, Ogres, VC and TK and I'm just ironing out my list as I try to assess possible threats and their solutions. Let me know what you guys think and if you would change anything and why.

Thanks.

2191
__________________________________________305
Archmage 305
-lv4
-folariath's robe
-lore of light

I'd say also take Talisman of Saphery, Silver Wand, and Life instead of Light magic.

__________________________________________168
Noble 168
-bsb
-armor of caledor
-dawnstone
-great weapon

Guardian Phoenix is IMO better than the Dawnstone for a BSB. The only time I use Dawnstone on my BSB is if GP is already used elsewhere.

__________________________________________591
Seaguard*28 371
-fc
-banner of eternal flame

Archers*10 110

Archers*10 110

Seaguard are over priced for what they do. Spearmen are cheaper, survive just as well and open points for either more bodies on the field or more dedicated archers. HE should pretty much always run minimum core amounts since our 3 core options are quite mediocre. Core for HE are not there to kill things, they are there to take heat off of better units and to tie up enemy units until a better unit can kill it. Banner of Eternal Flame on a 20x Archer unit is useful though.

__________________________________________827
White Lions*29 515
-fc
-banner of sorcery

Swordmasters*10 156
-musician

Swordmasters*10 156
-musician

White Lions are good as you have them. For Swordmasters they are best run in 6x2 or 7x2 with command being quite optional. 10 won't be able to maximize attacks against units that are 5 wide, where 14 will get all those wonderful corner attacks.

__________________________________________300
Bolt Thrower 100

Bolt Thrower 100

Great Eagle 50

Great Eagle 50

Bolt Throwers aren't worth their points. They very rarely earn their worth back, and it is money that could be spent on better things like more swordmasters, or some Dragon Princes. The Eagles are always great.


So, lay it out, chop it up, let me know.

-Jon

My thoughts in red. Not a bad list, but could use some optimizing.

Most glaring things that struck me was a lack of dispel scroll and taking RBTs in anything other then a shadow/book list is a waste. Also change your lore light is great if you run the light council list but otherwise Life or shadow is the way to go.

I gave it some thought, lore of shadow works better on your wizard since it compliments your shooting very nicely. The guardian pheonix seems a better idea since your BSB is gonna get hit with either high or low str attacks, and of the high str the dawnstone is only better against str 5.
I hate having to say this again and again to people but seaguard are better than spearmen. They add the flexability of having ranged attacks, and 9 spearmen vs 28 bows makes little difference most of the time. A large unit of spearmen doesnt fight any better than a unit of seaguard, at least not at the sizes you have it. I would actually take out one of the archer units for more seaguard; bolt throwers give you range and flexible targeting.
Swordmasters were nice the way you used em on friday but a bigger unit would have more potential. Only ten guys means the enemy only needs to kill 10 to get rid of them, which as you know is exactly what people will do.
RBTs are actually really good. You can't compare them to other warmachines cause they dont do the same thing. Elf bolt throwers are basically small missile units with the flexability to do real damage to monsters. Use them to add punch to your normal shooting and to target things str 3 bows wont do much to. Remember to concentrate your firepower or it'll be worthless and you'll really wish you had those extra 9 spearmen.

4 points per model more just for bow shots that are piddly S3?

Core for HE need to stay cheap. More bodies is more important for HE core than their ability to kill anything. They need to survive and take up enemy resources. The fewer there are, the faster other things die.

And bolt throwers are good in exactly 1 build for HE, and this build isn't it.

I'll have to agree with Aerethan. As much as I use to like bolt throwers (in 5th edition), they rarely make it to the battle field. Simply stated, there is better use for the points.

Based on what i've played, in my experience sea guard aren't terribly impressive for an extra 4 points/model. I generally use spearmen and then use any points left over for little units of archers. The archers can hold their own against some flankers/flyers because of the ASF/2 ranks of hth attacks and as you said earlier, can be used as a flanker in a pinch.

That said, some people live and die by sea guard so it becomes a matter of preference. A heavy shadows magic phase can really help sea guard in the shooting phase (especially coupled by high magic's arrow attraction) but thats tricky to get all in the same phase.

Honestly that list is ... You need to take pheonix guard over the sword masters. Anyone with any shooting will destroy the 2 10 blocks of swords. If you are hell bent on keeping them field atleast 25 in a single block, and keep the white lions in front. Swordmasters are really good at dieing and anyone who's played against High Elves knows to single out the swordmasters instantly.

Then compare the Pheonix Guard to white lions, lions are a 4+ against shooting. Sure they hit hard but I'm sorry 5+ Armour and 4+ Ward is much better any day.

As for bolt throwers, I always use them, they tend to never die, they are great if your opponent has a big dragon or some other point sponge heading your way. You just need to be careful with them against tomb kings, dwarves, skaven, and wood elves. They dont stand a chance if something comes behind them. Its not always about getting your points back. Sometimes its about putting a wound on something massive and not losing the unit. Even if you volley shot into say a nearly useless Bret M@A unit and kill 4. Thats 20-24 points in your favor saying the machine doesnt die. Also you have to consider Archers are usually favored over the bolt throwers but again 10 Arrows @ S3 vs a T6 insert monster here, or a S6 single shot with decent accuracy thats going to really ding through armour, not to mention multiple wounds. Also if you fear big monster's, 2 like you have is ideal just incase your dice aren't hot.

Banner of Sorcery as you have is a must, also I really like the sea guard, start them out 14x2 or 15x2 if you have characters joining them and swift reform if you feel they are going to be charged. Great utility unit, I like spearmen cause of the price, however, I definately always use sea guard.

Lastly you need a dispell scroll to be competitive.