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Despite their being several games depicting the Blood Ravens, there is little in the way of historical accounts regarding their creation. Whose gene-seed do they carry? Why are there so many Librarians in the Chapter? When did they come to be? Why did they get formed?
I'd like to hear anyone's theories on this.
The theory, a very popular one I might add, is they are Thousand Sons. A short story in Tales of the Heresy (I think) alludes to this, saying there were Thousand Sons who were not present at the battle of Prospero and they had a raven for a symbol.
The main theory is that they are descended from a loyalist sect of the Thousand Sons. However, Demski-Bowden has said that he wants to put a stop to this speculation since he dislikes the connection.
Alternatively, there is the belief that they are loyalist Word Bearers, given Eliphas and Davian's dialogue in Dark Crusade.
I'd rather they didn't reveal their origins. The worst thing you can do to a mystery is reveal it. Yes, the Blood Ravens are wrapped in enigma, but that's part of their charm. If you took away the mystery, you would take away one of the driving forces that makes the Chapter so interesting.
Their actions in the current speak more than the past. If they are descended from a traitor legion, that matters less than their deeds in the Imperium's name.
The author of the story confirmed it was a cheeky reference though and that he did not intend it as confirmation that the Blood Ravens descend from the Thousands Sons.
Still it's possible.
Perhaps they were another Cursed Founding experimentation, regarding psychics.
The fact that they don't know who their Primarch is is rather strange. It suggests that they are not loyalist remnants of traitor legions (these were probably folded into the Ultramarine) or a successor chapter as a gene-seed comparison would tell them who they are decended from. Of course they might be to busy liberating all the precious chapter relics they can get there hands on to worry about that : P
Thousand Sons, IMO. Guilliman was busy gathering loyalists from traitor legions (at least the ones who didn't get fried at Istvaan or imprisoned by the Custodes)...at least one loyalist Iron Warrior garrison joined up with the XIII Legion. The Ultramarines Champion who 'recruited' them implied other Champions were doing the same to other, potentially loyal garrisons across the galaxy, and perhaps to other legions as well. At least one member of the Fourth Fellowship (which left Prospero before the Burning and later scattered after an attack by an unknown enemy) survived the return to Prospero - Revuel Arvida.
Spoiler:
Unlike most Thousand Sons, he never had complete faith in Magnus, and after seeing that Magnus had failed to stop the destruction of Prospero, it was useless to continue following him. The Fourth Fellowship Captain, Menes Kalliston, was captured by World Eaters led by Kharn 'cleaning up' the ruins of the City of Light. Before his death, he renounced Magnus, considering his actions as either insane or incomprehensible to the point that any further loyalty to him as meaningless.
Arvida (who was a Corvidae, whose emblem greatly resembles that of the Blood Ravens) foresaw that not only would he not die on Prospero, but that he would live, and fight the true causes of his legion's destruction. He then sought to leave Prospero and find the other survivors of the Fourth Fellowship. At worst, he would be the only survivor, and at best, there would be hundreds of others.
IMO, Arvida did find other survivors, and were contacted by Guilliman and offered sanctuary within the XIII Legion - the Lord of Ultramar was not one to waste assets, least of all Astartes. By the time the Second Founding came around, he probably used his influence to disperse the loyalists into the Adeptus Astartes without the Inquisition knowing about it.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Like the Minotaurs and Red Scorpions, I'd prefer if their origins remained wrapped up in mystery, allowing amusing petty debates to go on on whether they're of traitor gene seed stock or not.
Gods? There are no gods. Merely existences, obstacles to overcome.
"And what if I told you the Wolves tried to bring a Legion to heel once before? What if that Legion sent Russ and his dogs running, too ashamed to write down their defeat in Imperial archives?" - ADB
I for one like the 1k Sons - Blood Ravens connection and have never heard a convincing case of why it is not cool.
Same. The most I heard is ADB doesnt like the idea of it and his word carries a lot of power sense he is one of those big named writers in BL and the HH series but that doesnt mean I dont like the idea of it.
So in my univsere the Blood Ravens are decendants of 1k Sons
There's really not that much argument amongst those in the know about the Blood Ravens being of TS lineage. The argument is whether they are literally the same marines who escaped prospero, or just happen to use TS geneseed under some forgotten Inquisition/AdMech/HLoT secret project.
So in my univsere the Blood Ravens are decendants of 1k Sons
Same here.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/10/22 23:48:38
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
"The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!"
Probably not the same marines though, I imagine Azariah Vidya was a Thousand Son.
Whilst Vidya is only mentioned in M37, there's bits of evidence stating that the Ravens go back much further than that. He may have simply lay low with his loyalist group for a while, or more likely there are chapter masters we know nothing about that go back even further.
Though Ahriman does mention knowing Vidya, so there's that.
The biggest problem with the theory is the flesh change. Any non psychic Blood Ravens would be suffering from it, even even among the psychic Blood Ravens, only te most powerful would be able to resist it. The Rubric did nothing more than vapourise those afflicted and seal their soul in their armour, it didn't cure it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/23 01:54:23
-Loki- wrote: The biggest problem with the theory is the flesh change. Any non psychic Blood Ravens would be suffering from it, even even among the psychic Blood Ravens, only te most powerful would be able to resist it. The Rubric did nothing more than vapourise those afflicted and seal their soul in their armour, it didn't cure it.
That's true. I have to wonder how they avoid mutation with such a high amount of librarians anyway. That has to have some effect on their gene seed.
-Loki- wrote: The biggest problem with the theory is the flesh change. Any non psychic Blood Ravens would be suffering from it, even even among the psychic Blood Ravens, only te most powerful would be able to resist it. The Rubric did nothing more than vapourise those afflicted and seal their soul in their armour, it didn't cure it.
That's true. I have to wonder how they avoid mutation with such a high amount of librarians anyway. That has to have some effect on their gene seed.
Tzeentch has no further use for the flesh-change. Why would he, when he has what he wanted: Magnus and most of his legion. A few Astartes freely bouncing around are of little matter.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
I personally vote they are 1k sons descendant. Just to many coincidences. Ravens of Blood, a mysterious appearance of a chapter. Large numbers of pychic recruits after gene seed implants. So on, just seems like GW wants us to believe they are 1k sons but they dont want to actually say it
Rysgame wrote: just seems like GW wants us to believe they are 1k sons but they dont want to actually say it
That's the way it seems to me as well, I've always thought it was heavily implied that they were Thousand Sons successors, or experiments in the Cursed/Dark founding (I think one of them used Traitor geneseed, and one used a mix of geneseeds I think, I can never remember which was which)
It's also heavily implied that the Ultramarines recruited the remains of the II and XI Legions. I've just read The First Heretic and there is a conversation between some marines that say the Lost and the Purged were "forgotton" by the Imperium about the same time as recruitment numbers for the Ultramarines shot through the roof.
I'm also a firm believer of the Blood Ravens being descendants of loyalist Thousand Sons.
As for the flesh change thing - yeah, Tzeentch no longer having use for it is one good theory. There's also the thing that we don't know for sure that the Rubric had no effect on any of the Sons that weren't on the Planet of Sorcerers at the time. Perhaps it did do what it was meant to do - for any of the Sons not in the Warp. Who knows.
Another theory that I like is based on something in the Index Astartes Blood Ravens article:
Spoiler:
The chapter's Librarian Sanatorium is grim testament to this fact, filled with the mad souls who have proven too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian. Here, these unfortunates are put to final use by the chapter before being ritually executed as a danger to themselves and others.
Perhaps some of those unfortunates didn't just go mad, perhaps they actually suffered from the Flesh Change...
Tadashi wrote: Tzeentch has no further use for the flesh-change. Why would he, when he has what he wanted: Magnus and most of his legion. A few Astartes freely bouncing around are of little matter.
Oh ho, quite the contrary, having a few oblivious Tzeentch marines working within the Imperium is likely "just according to plan."
Tadashi wrote: Tzeentch has no further use for the flesh-change. Why would he, when he has what he wanted: Magnus and most of his legion. A few Astartes freely bouncing around are of little matter.
Oh ho, quite the contrary, having a few oblivious Tzeentch marines working within the Imperium is likely "just according to plan."
Including the ambitions of a certain Khornate Daemon Prince-wannabe (Kyras).
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
BlackSanguinor wrote: Yes, a librarian becoming a demon prince of Khorne. Thats just... no
Don't look at me - that was the story of Retribution. But IIRC, Khorne tolerates sorcery so long as it aids the bloodshed in his name.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Besides, it wasn't as though the bloodshed was being caused by sorcery. That was just what tipped things in his favor. It was still the giant orbital lances that would do the killing, not lightning from fingertips.
In the 1k sons book my memory is spotty but it says ravens of blood looking for knowledge and they will have none. The cordivea symbol was a raven within the 1k sons symbol. The word bearers logic sounds like ti makes sense i would love to mix WB and TS gene seed
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/26 03:16:54
Wherever and whenever they appear they leave only destruction in their wake; they are the Lords of Death, Bringers of War. The Dark Angels.
Oh, you think the darkness is your ally, but you merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t see the light until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but blinding!- Helen Keller
Arcsquad12 wrote: The main theory is that they are descended from a loyalist sect of the Thousand Sons. However, Demski-Bowden has said that he wants to put a stop to this speculation since he dislikes the connection.
Alternatively, there is the belief that they are loyalist Word Bearers, given Eliphas and Davian's dialogue in Dark Crusade.
I'd rather they didn't reveal their origins. The worst thing you can do to a mystery is reveal it. Yes, the Blood Ravens are wrapped in enigma, but that's part of their charm. If you took away the mystery, you would take away one of the driving forces that makes the Chapter so interesting.
Their actions in the current speak more than the past. If they are descended from a traitor legion, that matters less than their deeds in the Imperium's name.
then you know bang, they would become hunted. Like the soul drinkers
Wherever and whenever they appear they leave only destruction in their wake; they are the Lords of Death, Bringers of War. The Dark Angels.
Oh, you think the darkness is your ally, but you merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t see the light until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but blinding!- Helen Keller
Gabrial Seth wrote: then you know bang, they would become hunted. Like the soul drinkers
Assuming they don't rejoin the Thousand Sons and Magnus the Red. I'd love to see the Inquisition hunt the Blood Ravens all the way to the Planet of the Sorcerers.
I should have left him there. He had served his purpose. He owed me nothing - yet he gave himself to me willingly. Why? I know not. He is nothing more than a pathetic human. An inferior race. A mon-keigh. But still I broke off my wings so that I might carry him easier. I took him from that place, into the snowstorm where our tracks will not be found. He is heavy. And he is dying. And he is slowing me down. But I will save him. Why? I know not. He is still warm. I can feel his blood ebbing across me. For every beat of his heart, another, slight spill of heat. The heat blows away on the winter wind. His blood is still warm. But fading. And I have spilled scarlet myself. The snow laps greedily at our footsteps and our lifeblood, covering them without a trace as we fade away.
'She sat on the corner, gulping the soup down, uncaring of the heat of it. They had grown more watery as of late she noted, but she wasn't about to beggar food from the Imperials or the "Bearers of the Word." Tau, despite their faults at least didn't have a kill policy for her race.'
Maybe they're from the second or eleventh legions. They were destroyed, but it's been suggested that they've been integrated into some legions like the Ultramarines...
Could somehow lead to the Blood Ravens and also explain the Inquisition's motivations in hiding their history.
Hey what do you mean the UM never took in destroyed legions into their numbers...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/29 16:12:11
Wherever and whenever they appear they leave only destruction in their wake; they are the Lords of Death, Bringers of War. The Dark Angels.
Oh, you think the darkness is your ally, but you merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t see the light until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but blinding!- Helen Keller
A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy 
3500pts The United
