Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Maybe i'm just oblivious to how this unit could be good but unless you somehow manage to have a unit that you expect to have flee (for example on the left flank) with a unit somewhat a bit behind it and have a unit ahead of said doom flayer or doom flayers (like something that's unbreakable like a unit under a screaming bell or plague furnace) in order to prevent the doom flayers from being charged then it's not that great.

Basically the doom flayer is a flanking weapon team with one wound and a +3 armor save that strikes with its attacks at initiative 3 and has d3 impact hits with an artillery dice worth of automatic hits. You might think this sounds awesome but every time i've deployed them even recently while trying to use them in two's as a flanking unit and having a large unit of clanrats or stormvermin to catch the overrunning enemy on my left it just doesn't work. Usually the enemy also has their set of plans and this only really works if they come out to fight you in melee (if they're dwarfs or empire they'll probably laugh you to death for such a dumb idea). Usually what few enemies that will come out to fight you in melee will be some of the hardest fighters around and toughness 4 besides or more likely better initiative (which means there's a chance one or both doom flayers will die before they even get the chance to do their artillery dice worth of attacks). Even if i get impact hits with 2 doom flayers flanking a unit and then get a decent amount of hits with each doom flayer it depends entirely on what units i face. I could only face some weaker enemies as anything ogre sized would probably just destroy them.

Ugh i just find that a warpfire thrower or a poisoned wind mortar are so much easier to handle and both are much better. I'm not a fan of the new rules for the ratling guns but i'll admit they're better than i used to think they were (no penalties for multiple shots or full range apparently which is actually a big deal). I mean with warpfire throwers i just put them in between my units in the back somewhere so that if a unit of mine flees and an enemy pursues i just turn it on the spot in my turn and unleash warpfire all over their guys. I've killed 12-15 high elves in one game with one shot with the thing and it's also great vs trolls. However i just can't love the doom flayer. I really want to but i just can't. I feel it should have more than one wound or cause fear or something. I mean in the lore it ruins dwarf shield lines but on the tabletop 3 dwarfs fighting it could probably kill it if they were left after the doom flayer's attacks. It's just really frustrating. I want so badly for this unit to succeed and maybe i'm just bad at the game but as far as weapons teams go it's hard to use and usually if you can't get it to do what you want it ends up flaying around doing nothing (no pun intended this time). I can't charge it at a shooting unit or skirmishers either for fear they'd just shoot it to death because they can and have.

Maybe it's just me though. Warpfire throwers do strength 5 for every guy hit, they do d3 wounds and they count as flaming so it goes through regeneration and re-rolls to wound against things in buildings (if i'm remembering that correctly) and it causes panic. The ratling gun isn't my prefered weapon but it can be good to with its range and volume of fire though it's not my particular choice in a weapons team. Then you have poisoned wind mortars which are fantastic against heavily armored troops and cavalry and are fantastic at that role and can blind fire and fire while moving if i remember correctly. The doom flayer i just don't know.

Anyway sorry for the rant. Please help me like this weapon team. Maybe i'm using it wrong but please get me to like it. It looks cool, sounds cool and has a good lore but nothing about it in the game makes me want to use it or at least until another skaven army book fixes it.

You properly use it by leaving it at home.

my experience with the weapon teams when facing skaven is that it is far more scary to see warp fire throwers than anything else.

The trick though is that I also see them as easy targets for forceing panic tests across the skaven line. little 1 wound units with a ward save can die to even archer fire and cause panic tests across the entire skaven army. I just can't pass that up!

Staying on topic a bit more though, the doomflayer isn't awful but its not exactly good either. The biggest problem with skaven units is that they have a issues wounding anything and the doomflayer can actually wound stuff far better than normal bog-standard clan rats. Not saying that its perfect... but s4 autohit is better than s3 ws3 any day of the week. Sadly (for the skaven) it does have to walk across the field to work, but everything has a drawback I guess.

Tactic-wise, id keep them behind the parent unit, let the rats charge (or be charged) then next turn counter charge with the doomflayer, aiming to just clip the target, minimising the number of people who can attack it. Think of it like a small monster...

war wrote:
my experience with the weapon teams when facing skaven is that it is far more scary to see warp fire throwers than anything else.

The trick though is that I also see them as easy targets for forceing panic tests across the skaven line. little 1 wound units with a ward save can die to even archer fire and cause panic tests across the entire skaven army. I just can't pass that up!

They don't cause panic... the rest of the army doesn't care that a single guy died... It's in their special rules...


ANYWAY! The other teams are better, so if you can't use a doomflayer, stop trying and use one that's simpler and more effective?


Von Chogg

Doomflayers were good when charging = attacking first.

The only thing they can safely target now are S3, maybe 4 models, with few attacks, or models with a lower Initiative (the 'flayer is I4, though).

For 55pts, that's way too specific. My friends and I house-ruled it to deal an Artillery die of impact hits and have d3 attacks (roll to hit as normal). It's about on par with the other teams that way.

war wrote:
my experience with the weapon teams when facing skaven is that it is far more scary to see warp fire throwers than anything else.

The trick though is that I also see them as easy targets for forceing panic tests across the skaven line. little 1 wound units with a ward save can die to even archer fire and cause panic tests across the entire skaven army. I just can't pass that up!

Staying on topic a bit more though, the doomflayer isn't awful but its not exactly good either. The biggest problem with skaven units is that they have a issues wounding anything and the doomflayer can actually wound stuff far better than normal bog-standard clan rats. Not saying that its perfect... but s4 autohit is better than s3 ws3 any day of the week. Sadly (for the skaven) it does have to walk across the field to work, but everything has a drawback I guess.

Actually that's in the rules. If they die they don't cause panic to the other units. It's just like how skavenslaves that panic don't cause panic to anything but skavenslaves. Basically they just don't care.

To my knowledge it goes by weapons team rules and all weapons teams have initiative 3 instead of the normal skaven 4. I don't know why but i assume it has to do with the weapons they use being heavy or something. Also if i remember correctly jezzails are also initiative 3.

My biggest problem with the doom flayer is you have to charge with it in somebody's flank or rear or it dies horribly. It takes no skill whatsoever to kill but takes a lot to maneuver around to kill your enemy and with an ever developing battlefield it might not always work. Whereas with a warpfire thrower i just keep them behind and in between units far enough that they don't panic when the parent unit dies or runs away and enough to turn on the spot and fire a straight in between units.

I feel the rules should be fixed for doom flayers. I mean possibly make enemies facing them striking at WS 1 or take a fear test or something considering a wimpy little zombie can cause it but a bunch of spinning blades coming at you doesn't. To me it's just make sense. You could also maybe give them more wounds (like 3 maybe) or a slightly higher toughness. I mean i don't understand how a bunch of whirring blades in a machine doesn't just freak out everybody around it. In the lore it smashes through shield lines.

 japehlio wrote:
Tactic-wise, id keep them behind the parent unit, let the rats charge (or be charged) then next turn counter charge with the doomflayer, aiming to just clip the target, minimising the number of people who can attack it. Think of it like a small monster...

I don't think that'd work either unfortunately. Thing is it only has +3 armor save in the front and one wound and its attacks go at initiative 3 except for it's d3 impact hits. You see all it'd take is for 4-6 guys to target all their attacks on it to kill it and considering horde rules with 3 ranks attacking it that won't be very hard. I only expect to ever use them in twos against the same unit and even one of them would probably die from a unit they'd flank.

Fear on a Doomflayer is something I'm strongly against. If they get it "because they'll cut you", why don't Plague Monks get it? Or Giant Rats--they're pretty scary--? Or what-have-you.

A better armour save, T4, and/or -1 to hit would both make sense and make them better. +1 Wound is another option, but a poorer one.

I stand corrected, turns out noone cares about the poor little weapon teams. Well, my skaven friend will love to hear that little tidbit (I don't have the army, trust him to know his rules).

I think that the sum of the posts above is that its a poor choice right now compaired to the other weapon teams.

Warpsolution wrote:
Fear on a Doomflayer is something I'm strongly against. If they get it "because they'll cut you", why don't Plague Monks get it? Or Giant Rats--they're pretty scary--? Or what-have-you.

A better armour save, T4, and/or -1 to hit would both make sense and make them better. +1 Wound is another option, but a poorer one.

Yeah but a one wound model for something that size can be a little dumb. Perhaps two wounds would be ok?

I don't mind fear on doom flayers as much but mostly because a lot of things have it already. I mean some high elves have it on their guys if i remember correctly. When you think about it a ton of things have fear. If you consider it a smaller version of the doomwheel (which itself causes terror) then it might make a little more sense.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Fear on a Doomflayer is something I'm strongly against. If they get it "because they'll cut you", why don't Plague Monks get it? Or Giant Rats--they're pretty scary--? Or what-have-you.

A better armour save, T4, and/or -1 to hit would both make sense and make them better. +1 Wound is another option, but a poorer one.

Yeah but a one wound model for something that size can be a little dumb. Perhaps two wounds would be ok?

I don't see why two wounds would really be a problem. After all, would that really be any different than when Weapon Teams were two models?

Doom flayers are a relic of 7th ed, when bumping up the kills you could inflict in a round of combat was much harder and more valuable than it is now under 8th ed rules. It used to be that three extra wounds in a combat round was enough to swing a round of combat, force him to take a modified LD check instead of you and possibly decide a whole game. Now there's way more kills every turn and with steadfast they don't matter as much.

I think probably the best thing to do is put the Doom Flayer on the shelf and wait for a new Skaven book.