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2012/10/23 23:41:11
Subject: USS Cole Bomber Back in the News; What is War? Baby Don't Hurt Me
GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba (AP) — A U.S. military war tribunal is weighing a question that might seem better suited for a history class than a courtroom: How long has the United States been at war?
The question is more than academic for Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, whose lawyers are appearing before the tribunal this week at the U.S. base in Guantanamo, Cuba, to seek the dismissal of war crimes charges that were approved by a Pentagon-appointed legal official.
Al-Nashiri faces trial in a special tribunal for war-time offenses known as a military commission for allegedly orchestrating the bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen in 2000 as well as attacks on two other ships. But his lawyers say that since the U.S. wasn't at war at that time, the 47-year-old shouldn't be tried at Guantanamo.
"The fact of going to war is a decision by the political branches, either Congress or the president or both," attorney Richard Kammen said Monday. "It's not something to be arrived at retroactively by a bureaucrat who is not appointed by Congress because it has huge consequences."
Al-Nashiri's lawyers say that the U.S. wasn't at war until after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and then-President George W. Bush did not certify the existence of hostilities of any kind in Yemen until September 2003.
The motion for dismissal is one of 21 matters set for consideration at a hearing scheduled to start Tuesday at the base, where the U.S. holds 166 prisoners, most of whom have not been charged with any crime. The hearing is scheduled to run through Thursday but officials were trying to condense the agenda because of the approach of Tropical Storm Sandy, which was heading north in the Caribbean Sea on a track to reach southeastern Cuba on Thursday.
Other items on this week's agenda include whether al-Nashiri should be forced to attend the hearings and whether the U.S. government should turn over information about a man killed in a drone strike in Yemen in 2002 who was identified in some media reports as the mastermind of the Cole attack.
"If he was killed based on the fact that he was the mastermind behind the USS Cole that's relevant," said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Stephen Reyes, his military lawyer.
Al-Nashiri, who was born in Saudi Arabia to a Yemeni father and a Saudi mother, has been held at Guantanamo since September 2006. An allegedly senior member of al-Qaida, he was held for four years in the CIA's secret network of overseas prisons, where he was subjected to the "enhanced" interrogation program that included at least two instances of the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding. The government has said he was also threatened with a gun and a power drill because interrogators believed he was withholding information about possible attacks against the U.S.
In November, he was arraigned on charges that include terrorism and murder for the attack on the Cole, which killed 17 sailors and wounded 37, as well as for orchestrating the October 2002 bombing of the French tanker MV Limburg, which killed one crewman, and a failed January 2000 plot on the USS The Sullivans. He could get the death penalty at a trial that his lawyers say is at least a year away.
In making the case for the military tribunal, prosecutors lay out the history of what they see as al-Qaida's escalating war against the U.S., starting with an August 1996 declaration by Osama bin Laden calling for the murder of U.S. personnel serving on the Arabian peninsula, though it wasn't until a week after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks that Congress and Bush approved an authorization for military force.
Al-Nashiri's lawyers say that former President Bill Clinton repeatedly noted that the country was at peace in the aftermath of the Cole attack.
A group of retired admirals and generals who served as senior military legal officials called for the military charges to be dismissed and for the case to be shifted to a civilian criminal court. In a brief in October as part of a civil challenge to the case, they also argued that the definition of war was being improperly expanded to include non-war offenses in the al-Nashiri case, and that such a use of the military courts could put U.S. soldiers and citizens in jeopardy in the future if other countries did the same thing to them.
"If countries can retroactively decide we were at war and chuck people from the civilian court systems into prisoner of war systems with the attendant lack of protections, that road runs both ways," Kammen said. "Once you get to go back in time and rewrite history that's a very, very dangerous precedent."
Prosecutors say in court papers that it will be up to the jury to decide whether the war crimes were properly filed in this case, and that it's too early for the judge to rule on the question. The judge, Army Col. James Pohl, is not expected to issue an immediate ruling on the motion.
I think the more interesting element is the question of what is and what isn't a War Crime and how large a window do we want that designation to be. I think the retired admirals and generals are right that we need to be more precise in using the term and in leveling charges against people under the auspices of war. We don't want to set the precedent that anything can fall under the heading, though I think in this situation it may have been an overzealous prosecutor that got ahead of himself a bit by levying war crime charges. Certainly he is criminal and certainly should be tried, but this may not be the right way of going about it.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2012/10/23 23:47:00
Subject: USS Cole Bomber Back in the News; What is War? Baby Don't Hurt Me
Stick with the military tribunial. No death sentence. If he goes the public route it'll be a possible death sentence.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2012/10/24 02:28:53
Subject: USS Cole Bomber Back in the News; What is War? Baby Don't Hurt Me
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
LordofHats wrote: Gonna agree. On the one hand, under what definition is attacking a military target a war crime?
Indeed, I am curious about that.
An act of war to be sure, not a war crime.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
23 October 1983, 241 US Servicemembers, mostly Marines, along with 55 French paratroopers were killed by a VBIED at a barracks in Beirut Lebanon.
It's the largest single day death toll for the Marine Corps since the Battle of Iwo Jima. Per my Drill Instructors many moons ago that was the opening shot of "the long war"
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
VBIED?
very big improvised explosive device?
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2012/10/24 02:33:52
Subject: Re:USS Cole Bomber Back in the News; What is War? Baby Don't Hurt Me
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Ahhhh right
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Dang, how much explosive was in the truck?
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
According to wiki the blast that hit 1/8's Barracks was equivalent to 5,400 kg (12,000 pounds) of TNT and was essentially a crude thermobaric (Fuel Air Explosive) weapon.
Also to correct myself it was 58 French troops, and their barracks was hit in a separate but simultaneous attack.
Here's a brief video on FAE weapons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/24 02:47:23
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
The fun part about dealing with terrorism is that it is a political problem that requires a combination of police AND military action. The average terrorist has access to much heavier military weapons than the average cop, or criminal for that matter.
So... where does one draw the line?
Speaking strictly on my personal preference, I have no problem letting this guy have his point. Bring him to the states and throw the book at him. Everything from murder 1 on down. Don't even mention the political issues, and deny any attempt he makes to bring the political issues up. Make it strictly about his criminal acts... and treat him like the criminal he is.
Then once the trial is done, toss him in prison. Either he's been sentenced to death... or the inmates will deal with him. Win/win.