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I did a spreadsheet about this a while ago. Looking at it now makes me scratch my head on how I did it. it take into account invuln by just saying "highest save available". The saves with "7" is just 7 for maths purposes, it's actually no saves.
Anyway, it worked out the "to wound" cost of purely the HW (AC/HB=10, LC=20) at BS3.
Results can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtoNxvqJp00_dHU5bGt0T1laOWlVRWJuLVBYLWdrcXc
It's not all that pretty atm, hopefully someone (else) can chart this up so y'all can make sense of it.

Went ahead and sorted my horribly unsorted data and created a chart:


If I could get my spreadsheet program to flip the data ranges correctly so the chart is more verticle than horizontal, I would. As it is, it screws up and decides that "Toughness and Save" need to be charted, and not the weapons.

I think from the table I've made that I'm going to stick to Autocannons. They aren't *that much* more expensive per wound than HB's, I'll be shooting them all match, I can use them against fliers if required, and if I fight any MC's they can hurt them. Melta's and blast templates for vehicles.

I've always been tempted of bringing 15 mortar teams. Costs too much IRL for it though (unless I go the base on base route).

Goddamit, going to have to do a chart for vs AV x now.

Done, I think. Shows total points spent on killing a HP3 with BS3.



Not that convinced my maths is perfect (mainly because some people would disagree with the results) so I've added the speadsheet as an attachment. It's in open office format. Sheet1 is calculations, the weapon select is a drop down box.

I didn't take into account the Weapon Destroyed and immobilized because that'll make the maths more annoying (X chance to immobilize+destroyed Y weapons).

I'm thinking just have you're infantry as 55pt flamer carriers with suicide SS and sponsoned executioners*. If HWSs could take plasma cannons that'd be a very interesting choice.

Give him pask as well as *essentially* you have S8 autocannons and S6 HBs against vehicles.

I've been playing around with the idea of having space wolves ally holding the home objective, with a blob and Termi SS/CF LW walking forward.

Well, from my maths, I'd say lascannons are a waste on BS3 units. Auto cannons apparently do everything for cheaper on BS3 models. Melta guns and guards other anti-tank weapons will have to do for the AV14
I'd argue that both these weapons need a rethink, why spend 90(AC)/150(LC) to wreck a AV12 vehicle wreak per turn? What could be spent there instead?

edit: I've come to a different conclusion than that of the both of you two. Autocannons fill *every* niche apart from wrecking AV14 and instagibbing T4 things for cheaper than a lascannon on a BS3 model. They're only a little bit more expensive per wound than HBs for what HBs are supposed to do as well.

Just did another calculation with 100% hit rate.
The chart looks the same as per chart #2 on Pg #3 except the Y axis is smaller. Same ratios for everything.

Are you willing to pay the premium? You'll still need about 8/9 AC's and LC's firing each turn to reliably bring down stuff (at BS3)

6 mortars are cheaper than 2 griffins. Same range, 2 less strength and 2 less AP, but 6 small blasts rather than 2 large and you get 30 points for more things.

 Ailaros wrote:

Blaggard wrote:Are you willing to pay the premium?

Definitely.

My question should have been "Do you want to spend 200 points on 10 lascannons or 100 points on 10 autocannons" on your infantry squads. That 100 points could be spent on other things. You answer this question later on.

Lascannons and autocannons may be roughly equal at glancing AV10-12 to death, but that's where it stops. The lascannon is better at stunning, immobilizing, weapon destroying and outright wrecking vehicles.

Well, no. Autocannons can kill AV10-12 for half the cost of lascannons. Chart posted earlier shows this. At AV12 autocannons have got a better chance of glancing it to death than the same points worth of lascannons of glancing + wrecking/sploding. They are even better against

Any of these may have a pretty serious strategic impact, depending on the circumstances. Having the chance to kill the target faster than glancing to death means more survivability for the gunners, and it means that it can do a lot more damage in a much shorter time, which is especially important for things like HWSs, but killing things faster cascades through the rest of the game in other ways too.

Since you're posting in favour of the lascannon, what you're gambling on here is not "it will most probably kill it early on" but rather "it may kill it early on". But because I've shown that autocannons do it for almost half the points. You can use those saved points elsewhere for more efficient dakka.

And lascannons can hurt AV13 and 14. If you've ever come across quantum shielding, or tau vehicles, or ironclad dreads, or anything AV14, you'll understand just how big of a deal this is.

Autocannons can deal with AV13 more cheaply than LC as well. In this instance it's only 50 points spent per turn. I agree with the hurting AV14, but it's incredibly inefficient to do so. You're having to spend almost 350/500 points to hope to wreck&splode/glance to death it in a single turn.

And lascannons are a credible threat to monstrous creatures, both wounding on 2's instead of 3's, and ignoring armor saves. And lascannons are a credible threat to TEq's, what with turning that 2+ save into a 5++ save, and is even better against MEq. And lascannons ID paladins and other multi-wound T4 bad guys, and it denies FNP.

Autocannons do it cheaper, as per the chart shown on page 1. Autocannon cost to wound t4 2+ is ~80, LC to wound t4 5+ is also 80. If they spend points on stormsheilds? The LC goes up to 150, the autocannons still at 80. Monstrous creatures? Same thing.

In large numbers, lascannons have better force concentration, and lower carrier costs. It has better of efficiency of fire lanes, better survivability through efficiency of cover saves, and gives you better efficiency of officer orders.

I disagree with the ones I've stroked out. This is because I think that because of the carrier costs you will be bringing the same amount of autocannons as you would lascannons, you're just using the points elsewhere on different weapons or carriers.

People here can ignore the facts all they want, but the lascannon is better.

Only for 1/5 reasons you've listed. I'm not even convinced on force concentration either.

 Ailaros wrote:

Blaggard wrote:My question should have been "Do you want to spend 200 points on 10 lascannons or 100 points on 10 autocannons" on your infantry squads. That 100 points could be spent on other things. You answer this question later on.

My answer is still yes. They're not just better, they're better for their points.

Blaggard wrote:Well, no. Autocannons can kill AV10-12 for half the cost of lascannons.

BY GLANCING THEM TO DEATH.

If you can't understand why causing penetrating hits on stuff is better than glancing stuff, then there's nothing more than I've already said that can explain it more. You're just going to have to get steamrolled a couple of times and think to yourself "Oh, I wish I would have been able to kill THAT faster" to drive the point across.

TheCaptain wrote:You're claiming a specialized weapon being better at its specialty makes it better than a multitool that does other stuff pretty nicely in addition to doing quite well at AV12 and lower

Doing AS well (well, not quite) as a lascannon.

Furthermore, what other stuff do you think that an autocannon does pretty nicely?

They glance it to death for cheaper than the lascannon costs to pen and blow it up/wreak it on average. I've posted charts for the vehicles and toughness + saves on this thread elsewhere and the calculations for the vehicle chart elsewhere on this thread. I invite you to show me if I've gone wrong somewhere on those calculations.
The lascannon, on average, does nothing better than the autocannon. It's left with the role of "hurting AV14" which, if given to infantry squads and HWSs, is overly expensive for not a huge return. I'd rather give the Infantry Squads autocannons so they can focus fire and bring stuff down, spending the rest on SITNW or Artillery or Storm Troopers or something better than inefficient lascannons.