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A couple friends of mine and I are developing a game concept, and are considering taking it to something like Kickstarter once the core ruleset is in place. I decided to bring a pose a couple of questions to dakka.

- What are the key things you look for in a project you are considering funding?

- What do you think makes for a successful crowd funded project?

- Are there any warning flags or deal breakers you avoid?

Have some prototype figures if it use miniatures. That's pretty much all I care about these days. Without a better idea of what you're planning it's hard to answer your questions, but I'll try.

- What are the key things you look for in a project you are considering funding? Value for the money.

- What do you think makes for a successful crowd funded project? Look at the successful ones.

- Are there any warning flags or deal breakers you avoid? If she talks a lot about her exes or chews her toenails that's a deal breaker.

Honestly for myself it comes down to presentation, subject matter, and value.

1. The description and pictures need to be clear, concise, and thought out. Concept art needs to be convincing, test sculpts are better, final designs are best.
2. Not everything appeals to everyone. For me it's Fantasy first, Sci-Fi second, and historics are not at all. That is completely subjective, you can't please everyone.
3. How much do I get for X. Every KS has some kind of pledge level where the most value is seen. For the Bones KS it was the $100 package that ended up having a metric ton of models added to it. The value there was massive, and I'm still pissed off that I was broke at the time. Another example was that Mcvey game. The $80-100 package included a ton of extra models on top of the standard game, and that was another one that I'd have bought if I hadn't been broke(finally have steady income so I can start doing KS's). So cram as much as you can, as value will often sell more than the subject matter.

If you're doing mini's you need

either spectacular art, greens, or named recongnised sculptors (preferably all three)

Value for money, many backers won't jump on unless you can give huge price breaks.... to really take off you need to add stuff for free to at least some pledge levels

Stretch goals should be as small as possible, especially if they just unlock stuff to buy (3-5K), if you're giving free stuff you can make them higher

A low funding target, too high a number will mean nobody bothers

Unless the ruleset is out and tested folk will be backing for the figures, so offer a level with just those (or add a pdf), rule books are an added expense and heavy to post so most won't really want them

Be prepared to be online 24/7 to answer questions etc. The more you engage, the more backers will help spread the word

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
A couple friends of mine and I are developing a game concept, and are considering taking it to something like Kickstarter once the core ruleset is in place. I decided to bring a pose a couple of questions to dakka.

- What are the key things you look for in a project you are considering funding?

- What do you think makes for a successful crowd funded project?

- Are there any warning flags or deal breakers you avoid?

1. Do I know them?
2. What exactly are they funding, and is it something that I haven't seen before?
3. Do other people vouch for the project?
4. Willingness to communicate.
5. How invested in the project are the organizers/ fundees.
6. Viability and is it a reasonable goal.
7. Does it do something that is new/ different that I can use with what I already have?
8. Long term growth, or is it a short term gain?
9. lickies and chewies, but depending on the project it really doesn't matter anymore.
10. Long term project, or is it a short term push.


Just a few of what I'm looking for. Though at this point, crowd funding is starting to look .... off to me. Some of the things coming down the pipe are just getting into the WTF territory, but I just don't have the stomach to throw down a few extra hundreds and wait for a year or so for something, when I have several other interesting compnaies in the now that I want stuff, and I can throw that hundred or two at them and get everything I need, right now.

Of course, still I don't mind some of the projects, and even others... ( Mongoose) have even reasonably changed my mind about thier companies.

BUT there is one particular company that has peed on thier shoes and will never be funded, nor will I be giving them another dime in another "Oh look at ALL THIS STUFF, too bad we don't have to continue to keep you informed after we got OUR cash. Maybe you'll forget about your "Gift" and never bother us again..."


Best company is the one that continues to keep you informed after the project. Even when they say a year, they don't have to wait a year to talk to you.

Thats my opinion.

Great responses, and I do appreciate them

We are in the very early stages of kicking this around so we are simply exploring our options and doing some research at the moment. Our initial thoughts are to have a very open ended game in terms of miniatures, part of this is due to a very open unit design. I am thinking that there would be a line of hero miniatures, and possibly later on some of the more common units. Overall, however, the system would be designed for people to create their own units within the system given, and use the minis that they like best for it. The level of mini support would be directly dictated by popularity of the system and art design.

I think an initial KS to fund a high quality rule book (digital and paper formats) is where we would start. Initial art design, fluff, and a copy of beta or "simplified" rules would be available for people to get a taste of what the system is about. The goal of the KS would be to fund the rest of the art design, proper formatting and layout work, and of course, printing. At that point, we would have to look at our status and see if we would be in a position to fund the first miniature line ourselves or if not, look at what would be the most suitable option to support moving onto the next stage.

I have backed 15 Kickstarters. The best Kickstarter I've supported has never forgotten that Kickstarter is not just free money. The creator has continuously provided the following, which are standard for business project management but seems to escape every other Kickstarter I've backed:

1. Publish the overall goal and the steps/milestones along the way to reach it.
2. Give the expected completion dates for both the big picture goal and the milestones.
3. Give regular status updates as to progress towards the next milestone(s).
4. When things go wrong, let people know not only what happened, but what you're doing to overcome the challenge, and how it will affect the downstream steps.

Here are some of the bad experiences... what not to do, so to speak.

One is a flat out scam. The guy took about $90k from backers. Right after funding, the guys said, "Thanks! Rent is now paid!" Then he disappeared, only to come back with claimed medical problems. Three months after the original deliver date passed, he said the reason he's been so quiet is that the kickstarter success caused him to be picked up by a major publisher and now he has to write a trilogy for them. Backers, now you're getting free promo crap, not the actual item that was promised. I requested a refund once it was clear project was not going to deliver as promised. My request for refund is getting a run around, and I still don't have the money. This guy has been lying, stalling, and giving out pity party excuses, so I've written it off as a loss and a scam. My only recourse would be small claims court on the other side of the country. That's not happening. Dude got a publishing deal out of it, though, so good on him.

Another was C&D'd by Hasbro (a Cthulhu themed monopoly-inspired game). Might as well kiss that one good bye. No updates for a while now.

Several others haven't given updates for a couple months. Some I'm more worried about than others. None have fully delivered, though a couple are pretty close, and all have been late.

You may encounter more people like me who are tired of working hard for our money, who are held accountable for producing tangible results to get a paycheck, and expect the same in any business deal. However, Kickstarters have zero accountability or consequences for absconding, delaying or just being incompetent. It shows.

TL;DR My biggest concern is artsy people with cool ideas who have no idea how to run a business, all of a sudden get neck deep, and can't complete the project. This kind of defines Kickstarter, TBH. So what do I look for?

- Do I know them?
- Do they have a recognized name on the line, i.e. an established business?
- Do they have examples of other similar projects that were successful?

Kickstarter now requires projects to include a risks and challenges section. I read that, and if it sounds realistic, I may be more willing to back. Most that I have read have been wishlisty bullcrap, though, and not thought out at all.

After my experiences, now I treat backing like I'm hiring them to work for me. If the application (ie kickstarter project information) looks like a recipe for failure, then I may throw a few dollars at it if its a cool idea- but this is like gambling in Vegas or loaning money to family. I only give as much as I am willing to flush down the toilet... and I don't ever expect to see anything back.

 Gymnogyps wrote:

You may encounter more people like me who are tired of working hard for our money, who are held accountable for producing tangible results to get a paycheck, and expect the same in any business deal. However, Kickstarters have zero accountability or consequences for absconding, delaying or just being incompetent. It shows.

TL;DR My biggest concern is artsy people with cool ideas who have no idea how to run a business, all of a sudden get neck deep, and can't complete the project. This kind of defines Kickstarter, TBH. So what do I look for?

- Do I know them?
- Do they have a recognized name on the line, i.e. an established business?
- Do they have examples of other similar projects that were successful?

Kickstarter now requires projects to include a risks and challenges section. I read that, and if it sounds realistic, I may be more willing to back. Most that I have read have been wishlisty bullcrap, though, and not thought out at all.

After my experiences, now I treat backing like I'm hiring them to work for me. If the application (ie kickstarter project information) looks like a recipe for failure, then I may throw a few dollars at it if its a cool idea- but this is like gambling in Vegas or loaning money to family. I only give as much as I am willing to flush down the toilet... and I don't ever expect to see anything back.

This is my attitude as well. I think it is *REALLY* important to KNOW who the people are. I feel like established businesses with storefronts and such make it slightly easier, but do not feel like you do not have the right to contact these people and hit them up with all sorts of personal questions. They are basically asking for a microloan with paying back your investment in rewards.

Sometimes it is ok to throw 10$ at a project which may never take off... but many of these KS want 200$ for a load of promises with pretty much nothing but good wishes and they really have no obligation to provide anything to you and they really can claim hardship or bad business plan and you are out money.

If you are going to develop a game, then anything which is your personal sweat, HAVE DONE. Don't expect me to pay you for your unemployment time to sit down and put your brain to paper. Define your actual production costs of things you actually need to have made and have everything else *DONE*. If you could provide a valid playtested ruleset which is fun to play and your KS is for making the game board, minis and packaging and distributing it, that is a lot more reasonable than, "I had this idea, and if you give me 100k I will get around to making it and then produce a board game or something." You can actually post the manufacturing costs and quotes from vendors and such to get people onboard.

Number 1 rule for me is "KNOW" who you are giving money to. Having a name and an address, either personal or business is a long stride to being able actually consider it. If the person is not trying to be open about his identity, there is a redflag.

A great example of post KS communication is Red Box Games

A lot of the KS depended on new sculpts based on art (or indeed the last stretch was just the promise of 3 dire wolves)

So we've had very regular follow ups of the sculpts as they are done, Tre has been very receptive to comments (although he's been a harsher critic than any of us)

His caster (Ed Fortae of Trollforged) has been chipping in showing stuff being mastered and cast,

we've had pictures of bags of completed minis that Tre has got back ready to ship

and Tre has been very clear (and appologetic) when it looks like he'll miss his deadline by a few days

As soon as my mini's arrive this will have been a perfect post KS situation

Reaper Bones is another good example of how to handle things post KS. They've had the added problem of having to let some of us down with a major delay in shipping paint (as their supplier could not get enought empty bottles to them).

Again they've hnadled it well, not pretended it was anything other than a mistake on their part and appologised

and again there have been regular post KS updates, some of the new sculpts have not been universally popular but again this has been handled well and professionally

More great feedback A couple points that were brought up that I really like and strongly agree with are:

nkelsch wrote:
If you are going to develop a game, then anything which is your personal sweat, HAVE DONE. Don't expect me to pay you for your unemployment time to sit down and put your brain to paper. Define your actual production costs of things you actually need to have made and have everything else *DONE*. If you could provide a valid playtested ruleset which is fun to play and your KS is for making the game board, minis and packaging and distributing it, that is a lot more reasonable than, "I had this idea, and if you give me 100k I will get around to making it and then produce a board game or something." You can actually post the manufacturing costs and quotes from vendors and such to get people onboard.

You have to go in with the ground work done, taken as far as you can go with out of pocket money and all of the work that you are capable of doing yourself done and finished. Be able to:

1) Show you are invested in this project and have already put in the time, money, and effort that are within your capabilities to do all that you can to bring the project to fruition. At this point you are asking for backers to help you with costs that you can not fill out of pocket and to purchase skills and services that you are not capable of providing yourself.

2) Give your potential backers something tangible so they can see what exactly they are backing. Some hand sketches and a section of fluff or two is not going to cut it.

Gymnogyps wrote:
1. Publish the overall goal and the steps/milestones along the way to reach it.
2. Give the expected completion dates for both the big picture goal and the milestones.
3. Give regular status updates as to progress towards the next milestone(s).
4. When things go wrong, let people know not only what happened, but what you're doing to overcome the challenge, and how it will affect the downstream steps.

Again, you have to go in with the groundwork done, and this means having a detailed plan to move forward with all of the research completed. I think having complete transparency in what you are doing is absolutely key. If you are trying to build a business, you must have the trust and confidence of your customers. Put your plan out there so people can see where their money is going. Once people have placed their trust in you and backed your project, you have an obligation to show them your progress and be completely open and honest when problems arise. You want to keep these people as customers long after the crowd funding is over, and one of the best ways to do that is to treat them with the respect they deserve.


As much as I'd like to, I'm not sure that the initial KS could be done with a substantial mini release due to the initial costs. Would you consider funding just a rulebook release with no minis if the ruleset/setting were appealing to you and the pledge levels were reasonably low? If so, what would you like to see as bonus goodies for backing?

I did back for a rulebook that just sounded cool for a $10 pdf (that would probably be my limit for something like that)

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2063410154/axes-and-anvils

although the project creator actually has a decent track record on KS having created other successfull projects, and also had other stuff on offer.

(I just glanced at it, thought oh that could be good, and backed at the minimum)

Not every KS has to provide something, or even be a deep discount pre-order. Some can simply be because you want something to exist, help a person or company start or support projects that 'SHOULD' be made.

But the expectation for the 'miniatures/RPG/wargaming' arena does expect basically product for less than retail and a tangible thing, and considering people consider rulebooks 'free' due to the ability to pirate, I feel like you will have people who always want rules relatively free and only pay for minis. Doesn't mean people won't support you to produce only a rule-set either in digital or physical form, but you will find a cross-section who will feel 'ripped off' regardless how valid they are.

Kickstarter is a fickle bitch. You Are literally going to be pulled in 100 different directions by people with all sorts of different expectations and you can never please everyone. The successful ones seem to hit a nerve and please a bunch of likeminded individuals and then something great can happen.

Speaking for myself at least, and with the greatest of respect to your project - especially since you're already 5 steps ahead of most people running a KS in that you're canvassing your market in advance...

I generally don't care about a new set of rules. This is because, like many of us, I have more rulesets than I'll ever get around to learning. At best, I might throw $10 in to support someone who I think deserves it, but I've probably got 20? 30? different quality miniature rulesets already sitting around the house, busily being not played. It's nothing personal, I contributed to both Red Box and Dreamforge's Kickstarters for the models, and couldn't give two hoots about either of their creators' dreams to create their own ruleset with their own fluff and background and blah blah blah.

I'm a miniatures guy, so maybe I'm not the target for this, maybe it's not for me. Which is also fine.

Here's an article about Sedition Wars and some reasons why it was a success: http://www.wired.com/design/2012/06/coolminiornot-success-kickstarter/

For me, kickstarters must:
1) Have a reasonable funding goal. I've seen some products which look cool, but have unreasonably high or low funding goals.
2) As in the article, it needs polish. Good artwork for everything.
3) A reason to buy. There are a number of kickstarters that I pass by because they don't give me any particular reason. What is different in your game that I can't get from any other existing or paid ruleset. Do you have famous sculptors or writers? A fantastic game setting? An untapped scale/theme combination?

A quick follow up on Sedition wars

we've just had an update that told us their chinese printer's company director ran off with all his company's cash

fortunately most of the SW printing was already finished, and they were able to liberate it from the now defunct company

so if you're tempted to print abroad where it's cheaper make sure you have insurance (or on site trouble-shooters) in case it goes wrong !

(I suspect in SWs case they made enough that even if they had to start from scratch it would have been ok for them financially, but for a small company pulling in 10-20K from a KS it could be the difference between releasing a product and faliure)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


we've just had an update that told us their chinese printer's company director ran off with all his company's cash

Yikes! That sounds horrible.

Is overseas printing really that much cheaper? My company has run a print shop for over a decade and the costs we can print things at is insanely cheap for top tier professional commercial products.

Good luck to them, that is a good point about risks is the companies whoa re doing the casting or printing.

scipio.au wrote:
Speaking for myself at least, and with the greatest of respect to your project - especially since you're already 5 steps ahead of most people running a KS in that you're canvassing your market in advance...

Measure twice, cut once?

scipio.au wrote:
I'm a miniatures guy, so maybe I'm not the target for this, maybe it's not for me. Which is also fine.

Heheh, and that's perfectly okay. In my gaming group, you have guys who are collectors and will buy something cool just to have it, even if they end up rarely if ever playing it. I personally have a few stacks of board games that have never gotten past the "remove the shrink wrap and ogle the contents" stage (Oh Tide of Iron...I will play you one day, I promise...). We also have guys that want to buy and focus on one or two games and stick to those only.

nkelsch wrote:
Kickstarter is a fickle bitch. You Are literally going to be pulled in 100 different directions by people with all sorts of different expectations and you can never please everyone. The successful ones seem to hit a nerve and please a bunch of likeminded individuals and then something great can happen.

You really have that in just about any company. People will always have different ideas of what they want from a product. I think the best you can do is stick to your vision, but be aware that if there truly is a majority of the masses calling for something, you better take it under consideration.

Trasvi wrote:Here's an article about Sedition Wars and some reasons why it was a success: http://www.wired.com/design/2012/06/coolminiornot-success-kickstarter/

For me, kickstarters must:
1) Have a reasonable funding goal. I've seen some products which look cool, but have unreasonably high or low funding goals.
2) As in the article, it needs polish. Good artwork for everything.
3) A reason to buy. There are a number of kickstarters that I pass by because they don't give me any particular reason. What is different in your game that I can't get from any other existing or paid ruleset. Do you have famous sculptors or writers? A fantastic game setting? An untapped scale/theme combination?

Very nice link, and I agree 100% with all the points you made. I don't think I'd be willing to under shoot the goal in order to drive momentum, like they discussed in the article. We likely won't have the reserves to still make it happen if we fall short. Also that kinda goes against my belief in keeping everything related to the kickstarter out and open where your backers can see exactly what your are doing and why.

On point 3), the setting/theme is something that has interested me for years, but I've never seen a game really capitalize on it...which is kind of why I'm in "f-it, I'll do it myself" mode. Hopefully enough other people will find it equally intriguing. That was mainly why I am considering the KS route. If there isn't enough interest in it, we take the hit for the cash we've already spent out of pocket, but we don't risk anything from investors, loans, or backers.

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
we've just had an update that told us their chinese printer's company director ran off with all his company's cash

Talk about a nightmarish scenario...*shudder*

I've got some connections with local printers so I'm definitely going to look into those first. Besides that, I'm pretty sure my dad would rise from the grave and haunt me for the rest of my life if I out-sourced anything to China, so I'm going to be exploring all other options first




Lack of good minis for this particular setting is another reason I'm taking it on myself, and the setting really deserves some fantastic sculpts/casts. I really do want a line of minis for the game, but having something at the very beginning is really going to be down to cost. I'm a babe in the woods when it comes to making minis so I really have no idea of the costs involved, start to finish. This is still very early in the research/concept stage so as I learn more, that side of the equation will clarify and I'll have a better understanding of what we will or will not be capable of.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

Lack of good minis for this particular setting is another reason I'm taking it on myself, and the setting really deserves some fantastic sculpts/casts. I really do want a line of minis for the game, but having something at the very beginning is really going to be down to cost. I'm a babe in the woods when it comes to making minis so I really have no idea of the costs involved, start to finish. This is still very early in the research/concept stage so as I learn more, that side of the equation will clarify and I'll have a better understanding of what we will or will not be capable of.

On average for a 30mm sculpt, expect to pay around $300~$500 (Or about $10 per mm), depending on the sculptor. Extra options/bits will generally be more.

On Metal casting expect around $200 for a master mold, and $100 for a production mold. With your average 30mm sculpt being around $1~$2 to cast each.

Resins will be about half the mold cost, but comparable per casts costs until you get to larger models where it is cheaper than metal.

Plastics are going to run you around $10k for a small mold, and pennies per cast.

Wow, thanks for the info That's a lot cheaper than I was expecting. Given the limited initial mini line I was considering, it's probably cheaper than the book once everything is taken into consideration. Maybe I'm going about this ass-backwards and we should do a line of minis first...I need to give this some more thought.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Wow, thanks for the info That's a lot cheaper than I was expecting. Given the limited initial mini line I was considering, it's probably cheaper than the book once everything is taken into consideration. Maybe I'm going about this ass-backwards and we should do a line of minis first...I need to give this some more thought.

Don't forget design costs, art costs, packaging costs, shipping costs, and payment fees as well.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Wow, thanks for the info That's a lot cheaper than I was expecting. Given the limited initial mini line I was considering, it's probably cheaper than the book once everything is taken into consideration. Maybe I'm going about this ass-backwards and we should do a line of minis first...I need to give this some more thought.

Don't forget design costs, art costs, packaging costs, shipping costs, and payment fees as well.

Heh, I'm not entirely. I expect design costs will run much higher for the book than the initial minis.

The art costs are somewhat shared as a portion of the artwork for mini design can be used in the book. I've been looking over this today, trying to consider what would be a workable balance between local "amateur" artists I know that have the skills, and trying to get a big name or two attached to draw some attention. Using a big name artist for cover work and characters, then locals for the filler artwork for the book. If we aren't careful, it seems the costs involved here can easily run out of control.

Packaging costs are a bit of a question mark, but I can't imagine they'll run more than 3-4x the cost of the resin mini that they are holding (I'm probably setting myself up for a major boot to the rear with that statement)

Shipping and payment fees will be post-production, and hopefully can be accounted for in the kickstarter itself.

Of course at this stage, a lot of this is just guessing on my part. You're obviously a lot more experienced with the reality of it than I am

While not completely unavoidable, hopefully I'm at least limiting the number of moments we'll run into.

nm. found it.

 scipio.au wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
A quick follow up on Sedition wars

we've just had an update that told us their chinese printer's company director ran off with all his company's cash

fortunately most of the SW printing was already finished, and they were able to liberate it from the now defunct company

so if you're tempted to print abroad where it's cheaper make sure you have insurance (or on site trouble-shooters) in case it goes wrong !

(I suspect in SWs case they made enough that even if they had to start from scratch it would have been ok for them financially, but for a small company pulling in 10-20K from a KS it could be the difference between releasing a product and faliure)

Source?
I haven't gotten an update from CMON in months?

You've probably got your KS email by now (unless your or your ISPs spam filter ate it), but in case you've not here's the link

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/sedition-wars-battle-for-alabaster/posts/340895?ref=activity

ta!

- What are the key things you look for in a project you are considering funding?

It has to be something that I am interested in.
It has to be a professional product, not something someone is doing from their garage.
It has to be from a person or company with a history of being reliable.
It must be a physical product. I don't trust any software development project at all. Too easy to wind up funding vaporware.

- What do you think makes for a successful crowd funded project?

Making a specific and well defined project. Knowing their market and targeting their project to it correctly. Having a firm understanding of what crowdfunding is and how it works. Having good business sense.

- Are there any warning flags or deal breakers you avoid?

As stated before, I will never fund any sort of software. I will also not fund anything that looks like it's being done in someone's garage. I don't fund "services" like BTP. I won't fund otherwise reputable companies if there are issues with them fulfilling current commitments (looking at you, Avatars of War).