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So it seems in my 5 matches I have already developed a hatred for Vlad of Khador... his blood of kings, and windwall utter counter my Major Markus "Siege" tactics and when he isn't casting wind wall to utter stop my defender's gun or my ground pounder special move he is instead charging with a 14 inch range that has pathfinder... I can't really figure out a way to stop Vlad other than keeping a jack with 3 focus and a mat 7 right next to me because he'll annihilate me the moment he gets the chance. Not to mention the warjack is hardly a good choice what with vlad's 18 defense and 19 armor.

any suggestions on how to take him down?

Wind Wall only stops non-magical ranged attacks.

Siege has Explosivo that make his ranged attacks magical and his Defender's ranged attacks magical as well. Since Explosivo isn't an upkeep spell, you can freely cast it on both Siege and on the Defender. You can't use it with Ground Pounder, but that isn't that big of a deal.

Slamming a model into him also takes care of the DEF 18 problem. Precursor Knights ignore BoK. Run a Ranger up next to him to get the +2 to hit. Use pEiryss to strip focus off him for the next turn.

Try to get a hit on him with the defender and explosivo. Aiming and boosting means you need a 10 on 3d6. Not too bad. ideally you can get a couple shots off with the defender boosting hit and dmg. Then on turn 3 go all in to finish him with your feat and fully boosted shots. DEF 18 is pretty good till you start looking at rolling 3d6. Then suddenly you just need average rolls instead of long shot rolls. Not an autohit by any means, but should put some fear in him.

Good news is with those spells he has very little focus left. If you camp some focus or get Jr to cast arcane shield on you he should survive average rolls if Vlad charges. And while Seige isn't a melee machine he is no slouch, either.

I'd also make sure you have some good screening. If nothing else hide behind your defender! And again, if he is constantly casting those two spells then the rest of his army is unsupported. take out the rest of his guys.

Other options are good, too. What else do you have in your list?

And if you want to take a different caster look at Sloan.

Against a good pVlad, there won't be three turns of shooting. Sloan is a bad matchup against pVlad. It's too dependent on going first. They're on you turn 2 regardless of who goes first and if you go first or second determines how many shots you actually get. Sloan also has nothing outside her gun that helps get through Wind Wall. She doesn't like fighting fast armies.

If you want a real options for other casters, look to eCaine, eHaley, or eStryker.

Explosivo!

12thRonin wrote:
Against a good pVlad, there won't be three turns of shooting. Sloan is a bad matchup against pVlad. It's too dependent on going first. They're on you turn 2 regardless of who goes first and if you go first or second determines how many shots you actually get. Sloan also has nothing outside her gun that helps get through Wind Wall. She doesn't like fighting fast armies.

If you want a real options for other casters, look to eCaine, eHaley, or eStryker.

Probably won't get 3 turns outside an ideal situation. But not impossible. And even two turns is good. I'd really like to know what else the OP is running in their list and what points level they are playing.

these are incredibly small matches right now which is why maybe vlad is so impossible to take on in my head. I accepted that he is way more mobile than Siege and able to have his jacks or himself rush right through the difficult terrain i make and to make matters worse nearly clear my shooting ranges since i lack a proper snipe spell. I accept vlad isn't stupidly broken or anything just an excellent counter to my inital tactics of playing, it didn't help that i had no options available to me, but my opponent says that explosivo didn't cut his windwall cause it was still a ranged attack regardless of the spell i put in place (he could have been wrong we are friends)

so to make sure when i fight him again (cause I will be fighting him alot >.> .... sigh) could someone provide me a copy & paste ruling that proves explosivo cuts windwall? if so that would have been amazing cause my feat was more or less negated that turn because he had everything within 3 of windwall [i'm a noob].

anyway my problem was in 15 pts i have a unit of 6 trenchers, a grandier jack, and a defender with seige and it just felt like so little on the field not to mention he was using a bombard + these shieldwall dudes more or less immune to my army. It was just a poor match up there i plan to use long gunners before trenchers and wait till hire points since foxhole will let them more or less let them be trenchers in the first place and the extra range will do me wonders.

since pts were so low, ... probably really need to change the list around and plan for the envitable CQC by keeping the ironclad around

Changing a grenadier for the B13 could be a way to go. They have shortish range, but they can crack armour and have magical shooting.

Explosivo makes your ranged attack a magical ranged attack. Windwall does not block magical anything attacks. Your friend is wrong

Sining wrote:
Explosivo makes your ranged attack a magical ranged attack. Windwall does not block magical anything attacks. Your friend is wrong

yep we had some fun tonight and played again. with those rules in mind, i didn't face off against vlad but i did kick butcher to the curb with Markus and man it felt good to have my powers play into effect, whew his feat is nasty though and the fact he can rip a jack apart in his own right told me all i need to know. luckily I outpaced his caster and kept him locked down with rift attacks and force hammers which work AMAZINGLY WELL after reading up on them. Knocking prone and collaterals as well and precious distance to be thrown back

 motyak wrote:
Changing a grenadier for the B13 could be a way to go. They have shortish range, but they can crack armour and have magical shooting.

PoW 10 + 3D6 cannot crack any armour...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

so to make sure when i fight him again (cause I will be fighting him alot >.> .... sigh) could someone provide me a copy & paste ruling that proves explosivo cuts windwall? if so that would have been amazing cause my feat was more or less negated that turn because he had everything within 3 of windwall [i'm a noob].

There is no ruling needed, you just need to read the spell:

Wind Wall
This model cannot make ranged attacks, and non-magical ranged attacks targeting it automatically miss. While completely within
3˝ of this model, models cannot make ranged attacks and non-magical ranged attacks targeting them automatically miss. Wind
Wall lasts for one round.

The spell specifies that it only affects non-magical ranged attacks. Since magical ranged attacks aren't mentioned anywhere, they still affect those models.

anyway my problem was in 15 pts i have a unit of 6 trenchers, a grandier jack, and a defender with seige and it just felt like so little on the field not to mention he was using a bombard + these shieldwall dudes more or less immune to my army. It was just a poor match up there i plan to use long gunners before trenchers and wait till hire points since foxhole will let them more or less let them be trenchers in the first place and the extra range will do me wonders.

CRA with the trenchers. Throw up smoke bombs to block LOS. No LOS means no charges. Dig in in order to make them immune to the bombard.

Grenadier is OK, but I would look at a hunter, minuteman or B13. Grenadier pow 12 isn't that good and bunching up all your trenchers next to him make a juicy bombard target. Also Seige hates giving out focus. He would be better if your opponent had alot of light infantry. IMO you would be much better with B-13 and Reinholdt (mercanry gobbo. I believe his rules are in the main rule book). The B-13 can do alot. And reinholdt gives Seige a second shot with his rocket which is never a bad thing. Rift and Force Hammer can be cool, but they aren't Seige's main thing. Two fully boosted pow 14s is going to hurt alot more in the great majority of the cases. And that is pretty much what you are giving up if you cast either of those spells.

For tactics I would use your existing models to slow down Vlad (or whoever he plays). force Vlad to charge the trenchers and grenadier and then blast him with seige and the defender. Smoke bombs help to block LOS as well. Everyone in your army not named Seige or Defender is there to slow down the enemy. By dying if need be.

PhantomViper wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Changing a grenadier for the B13 could be a way to go. They have shortish range, but they can crack armour and have magical shooting.

PoW 10 + 3D6 cannot crack any armour...

Really? a POW 20-21 on an average roll won't crack any armor? particularly if you add in Seige's feat since that is the caster we are discussing...

No the B13 are not the best to use against armor 20+, especially things with boxes, grids or spirals, but they most definately can deal with quite a bit of armor. And the magestorm is a great spell to deny an area to an opponent. Even MOW are probably taking some dmg walking thru a magestorm.

Personally, dropping the grenadier for the B13 is a great idea. Better dmg and much more toolboxy than a grenadier. Also frees up that all important point for Reinholdt.

 Mordekiem wrote:

anyway my problem was in 15 pts i have a unit of 6 trenchers, a grandier jack, and a defender with seige and it just felt like so little on the field not to mention he was using a bombard + these shieldwall dudes more or less immune to my army. It was just a poor match up there i plan to use long gunners before trenchers and wait till hire points since foxhole will let them more or less let them be trenchers in the first place and the extra range will do me wonders.

CRA with the trenchers. Throw up smoke bombs to block LOS. No LOS means no charges. Dig in in order to make them immune to the bombard.

Grenadier is OK, but I would look at a hunter, minuteman or B13. Grenadier pow 12 isn't that good and bunching up all your trenchers next to him make a juicy bombard target. Also Seige hates giving out focus. He would be better if your opponent had alot of light infantry. IMO you would be much better with B-13 and Reinholdt (mercanry gobbo. I believe his rules are in the main rule book). The B-13 can do alot. And reinholdt gives Seige a second shot with his rocket which is never a bad thing. Rift and Force Hammer can be cool, but they aren't Seige's main thing. Two fully boosted pow 14s is going to hurt alot more in the great majority of the cases. And that is pretty much what you are giving up if you cast either of those spells.

For tactics I would use your existing models to slow down Vlad (or whoever he plays). force Vlad to charge the trenchers and grenadier and then blast him with seige and the defender. Smoke bombs help to block LOS as well. Everyone in your army not named Seige or Defender is there to slow down the enemy. By dying if need be.

PhantomViper wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Changing a grenadier for the B13 could be a way to go. They have shortish range, but they can crack armour and have magical shooting.

PoW 10 + 3D6 cannot crack any armour...

Really? a POW 20-21 on an average roll won't crack any armor? particularly if you add in Seige's feat since that is the caster we are discussing...

No the B13 are not the best to use against armor 20+, especially things with boxes, grids or spirals, but they most definately can deal with quite a bit of armor. And the magestorm is a great spell to deny an area to an opponent. Even MOW are probably taking some dmg walking thru a magestorm.

Personally, dropping the grenadier for the B13 is a great idea. Better dmg and much more toolboxy than a grenadier. Also frees up that all important point for Reinholdt.

woah woah woah reinholdt is only 1 pt?!

And i agree i'd rather have the B13 than the grenie after testing it out. It's probably better for mass infantry slaughter though.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:


And i agree i'd rather have the B13 than the grenie after testing it out. It's probably better for mass infantry slaughter though.

Don't underestimate magestorm and 2 brutal damage shots...

 Mordekiem wrote:

Really? a POW 20-21 on an average roll won't crack any armor? particularly if you add in Seige's feat since that is the caster we are discussing...

No the B13 are not the best to use against armor 20+, especially things with boxes, grids or spirals, but they most definately can deal with quite a bit of armor. And the magestorm is a great spell to deny an area to an opponent. Even MOW are probably taking some dmg walking thru a magestorm.

Personally, dropping the grenadier for the B13 is a great idea. Better dmg and much more toolboxy than a grenadier. Also frees up that all important point for Reinholdt.

Yes, really. Dealing a whopping 4 DMG to ARM 20 on average for the whole unit isn't cracking armour by any stretch!

Siege's feat only works for the first damage roll that the model takes, so you are much better of shooting Siege or the Defender at it than the Black 13.

MoW advancing are ARM 17, meaning that they will take on average 2 points of DMG when walking through a Mage Storm!

I still agree with you that replacing the Grenadier for Black 13 + Reinholdt is the way to go though. Black 13 offers allot more utility and Reinholdt is a must have for Siege.

Yeah, B13 is no solution against ARM 20.

Though Gun Mages in general are good for the push/pray for
crit knockdown. If nothing else, it means 1 less focus next turn
for the 'jack in question.

 Mordekiem wrote:


CRA with the trenchers. Throw up smoke bombs to block LOS. No LOS means no charges. Dig in in order to make them immune to the bombard.

Not quite. The Trencher can still be charged and killed. Additional attacks can be bought after that outside the smoke. You're still not immune to being slammed or just walked up on and hit or having them just run through the cloud. You don't really need to charge a trencher to kill it either.

Also don't forget that there's lots of ways to ignore or make the cloud go away.

I'll probably regret saying this cause it could turn into a super heated debate but who would you say are going to be casters which cause me major problems with Choosing Markus as my caster I still feel Vlad is one of them but who else?

PhantomViper wrote:Yes, really. Dealing a whopping 4 DMG to ARM 20 on average for the whole unit isn't cracking armour by any stretch!

Whoa, you said before "any armor" I took that to mean heavier armor of the 18-20 range. You also didn't say anything about the specific targets. If you keep reading I said against models with boxes, spirals, etc they are not the best. They can and will kill models in the 18-20 armor range, but won't put alot of dmg on them if you got boxes or more.

And against things like MOW the feat + brutal dmg works great. And magestorm will probably put some damage on them. Never claimed it would kill them (in fact I don't think it can. I believe MOW have 8 boxes and magestorm can only deal up to 7 to them). I find when dealing with something like the MOW you often have to hit them 2-3 times. So magestorm helps to soften them up or force them to go around.

12thRonin wrote:

 Mordekiem wrote:


CRA with the trenchers. Throw up smoke bombs to block LOS. No LOS means no charges. Dig in in order to make them immune to the bombard.

Not quite. The Trencher can still be charged and killed. Additional attacks can be bought after that outside the smoke. You're still not immune to being slammed or just walked up on and hit or having them just run through the cloud. You don't really need to charge a trencher to kill it either.

Also don't forget that there's lots of ways to ignore or make the cloud go away.

I should've been clearer. The OP was having trouble getting charged by Vlad before Seige could apply rockets. A smokescreen will block LOS to Seige and hence charges if he is behind it. Clearly the trenchers would get sacrificed, but that is well worth it to kill Vlad. In fact, if for some reason a trencher did survive Vlad's onslaught, I would purposely move the trencher out of the way taking a free strike before I shot at Vlad. It is going to be very tough for any model in 14" of seige to survive a turn against him. Especially with Reinholdt and a Defender backing him up. 3 fully boosted pow 14-15 will kill the great majority of casters, especially ones with little or no focus.

I'll probably regret saying this cause it could turn into a super heated debate but who would you say are going to be casters which cause me major problems with Choosing Markus as my caster I still feel Vlad is one of them but who else?

I'm not sure Vlad is a bad match up, just a tougher one for you right now as you are learning the game against someone who sounds more experienced.

The tougher matchups I would see are ones that are very difficult to assasinate because they can soak or shift the damage from Seige and his defender even with Seige's feat. But against alot of those you will want to play the attrition game and use your feat and abilities to thin out the other army and play for objectives. Seige can play alot of different games and deal with alot of different things that give problems to alot of people. For example he can deal with stealth pretty well. He can get past screening models pretty easily. He can take out clumps of infantry with ground pounder.

I'd say his biggest weakness is his RAT. For an obviously shooty caster, particularly a Cygnar one, I feel it is little low. Aiming and boosting help, but really high defense is going to be tough for him to hit. Fortunately in these cases you usually only need one hit.

All these things can usually be addressed with his list. Eyriss to deal with upkeeps/buffs, rangers to improve accuracy, infantry to deal with enemy infantry, JR to provide buffs, etc. There is a reason Seige is considered a top tier caster. He doesn't have much in the way of bad match ups. I am trying to think of anything specific and cannot. Maybe someone else can.

And yes, Reinholdt is 1 pt. for an extra shot with the rocket launcher each turn. Reinholdt turns Seige from a good caster into a killer.