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Struggling to choose between two possible lists for my CSM. They don't vary by much, but I'd like some feedback on what would be a better TAC list:

List 1:

HQ

Chaos Sorcerer - 140pts
- Mastery Level 2
- Gift of Mutation
- Burning Brand of Skalathrax
- Spell Familiar

Elites

Troops

9 Chaos Space Marines – 197pts
- Meltagun
- Combi-Melta
- Gift of Mutation
- Rhino
- Dirge Casters

Sorcerer goes with these guys

10 Chaos Space Marines – 230pts
- Plasma Gun x2
- Combi-Plasma
- Gift of Mutation
- Rhino
- Dirge Casters

10 Cultists – 65pts
- Autoguns
- Flamer

Fast Attack

5 Raptors – 130pts
- Meltagun x2
- Gift of Mutation
- Lightning Claw
- Plasma Pistol

Heavy Support

3x Obliterators – 228pts
- Mark of Nurgle



List 2:

HQ

Chaos Lord - 150pts
- Plasma Pistol
- Murder Sword
- Gift of Mutation
- Sigil of Corruption

Elites

Troops

9 Chaos Space Marines – 197pts
- Meltagun
- Combi-Melta
- Gift of Mutation
- Rhino
- Dirge Casters

Lord goes with these guys

10 Chaos Space Marines – 230pts
- Plasma Gun x2
- Combi-Plasma
- Gift of Mutation
- Rhino
- Dirge Casters

15 Cultists – 85pts
- Autogun x10
- Flamer

Fast Attack

5 Raptors – 130pts
- Meltagun x2
- Gift of Mutation
- Lightning Claw
- Plasma Pistol

Heavy Support

5 Havocs - 105pts
- Autocannon x4

Aegis Defence Line - 100pts
- Quad Gun


Personally I'm leaning towards the second one as the Havocs with the Quad Gun has a huge amount of firepower, and is especially effective against the occational Flyer which would turn up. What are your thoughts?

The Havocs love the defense line

That's what I was thinking: you can't really go wrong with 12 S7 shots, 4 of which are TL

I think list 2 is overall stronger. However, I'd ditch the Murder Sword and Plasma Pistol on the Lord and take a Power Fist or LC instead. I dunno, the Murder Sword is expensive and becomes extremely awesome in limited situations. I think the points are better spent elsewhere.

I'd also try to at least fit 1-2 Oblits in there. The fact that their guns are pretty much effective against anything will really help, as right now, against high armor, you're a bit lacking.

As far as your first list goes, I'd like to know what your plans for the Sorc are. What discipline(s) will you be rolling on, if there are particular abilities you may be going for, etc. On list two, I would drop the Murder Sword and the Plasma pistol in favor of a Lightning Claw and Power Fist. It's cheaper and you can kill anything with this combo. The Murder Sword I've found to be best on a secondary HQ that isn't your Warlord. Biker or Jump Pack Lords have the best means of delivering the Murder Sword to it's intended target. Otherwise you are paying through the nose for a Power Sword that may never reach it's designated target.

Overall I think both lists look pretty good - the gifts of mutation may be a little over the top, bit they're also fun, which is the most important thing when playing the game!

a few things to think about:

A lvl 2 sorcerer is likely to get one witchfire power - I don't believe he can use this and shoot the burning brand at the same time. Consider your powers carefully if you take him.

I'm not convinced by plasma pistols on unit champions (i.e. the Raptors) - they tend to die far too often from 'Gets Hot'! Perhaps you've had better luck...

The Havocs in the second list will punch out a fantastic amount of firepower, but are also very vulnerable - every kill the enemy causes will reduce your effectiveness, as you have no spare bodies in the squad. I'd see if you can find the points for even a couple more Havocs here - just knowing their initial shots won't affect the hurt coming their way is often enough to cause your enemy to choose another target.

I was going for the Murder Sword and Plasma Pistol as the only Lord model I have is the one from the DV set. However, I don't see why I couldn't use one of the Chosen as an alternative. Despite this, I want to see how good these new Artifact Weapons are, so would swapping the Murder Sword for a Black Mace be a better option? It's 10 points more and I lose a point of Ap but the overall benefits seem to outweigh these drawbacks. That being said, the PF/LC combo comes out at 5pts cheaper than the Mace so it's a bit of a tough choice. Another idea I had was freeing up another 20pts and swapping him entirely with either Kharn or Lucius. Both are pretty awesome in CC but I haven't had experience with either.

I was going to base the Sorceror around the Telepathy discipline, and use him to support the 9 CSM unit, especially in assault, but your comments about getting the Witchfire powers does mean that the Brand will be useless a fair amount of the time, so I'm in favour of swapping him out for the Lord.

Gifts of Mutations are really just there for fun. They're relatively cheap and can give some good benefits. Plus occationally I'll get a Daemon Prince out of it so there's an added bonus.

That's a good point on the Havocs: they could do with some ablative wounds. If I were to raise the point threshold to 1250 (which, due to money restraints, I'm a bit reluctant to do) I could get a couple of Oblits and 2-3 extra Havocs to soak up some firepower.

Good points so far guys, any more appreciated.

Unfortunately the Gifts of Mutation can't turn your characters into daemon princes, only killing enemy characters gets you that result

 Hedgehog wrote:
Unfortunately the Gifts of Mutation can't turn your characters into daemon princes, only killing enemy characters gets you that result

Good spot, I thought you just re-rolled those results, turns out you ignore them completly

On the Black Mace, I would say it is worth it. You may not be ignoring much in the way of Armor Saves, but with a potential 10 attacks on the charge your bound to wound something, and THAT is when the corpses start exploding!

Forgot about the +D6 attacks, makes the Mace even more attractive

Yup, and since the only other demon weapons require Typhus, Abaddon or the Mark of Khorne, the Black Mace is the go-to Daemon Weapon for everyone else. I use the Chosen model from DV with the Power Maul for my lord these days because of it!

Had this thought while doing lab-work today: What if I drop the Lord and Rhinos and take Huron as well as boosting one of the CSM units to 15 strong? I'd have a 2/3 chance of allowing both units of CSM to Infiltrate, allowing them to get up close with the Plasma Guns. Swapping out the Boltguns for BP/CCW would improve this even further. What does Dakka think of this change?

I think a lot of it is going to come down to how you want to play them. In other words, what type of strategy do you have in mind?

Most of the standard missions are objective based. Also, enough of them have the First Blood vp as to make rhinos early targets.

How do you plan on using the cultists? They are pretty easy to kill, but can hold an objective... On the other hand, they are cheap and could screen other units for a round if you just want to throw them away.

Ultimately, any list you come up with will be viable... depending on how you play. So, think about your goals. Are you wanting high mobility early on in order to reach objectives far away ( rhinos/raptors) or are you more of a sit and shoot player? Which units do you want your opponent focusing on first? For example, are the raptors there to move in fast and force your opponent to deal with them or do you want them to contest later in the game?

What, if anything, are you considering to reserve? To sum up, I'd suggest that you come up with a battle plan based on mission probability then decide what units fit the roles you need.

Well the Rhinos are there to improve mobility and to provide cover if needed, which will reduce the damage taken by the CSM units on their way to the enemy/objectives. If I was to take Huron, his infiltrator ability would allow my troops to get close immediatly without risking losing First Blood by losing a Rhino. Infiltrator also allows me to make full use of my Plasma weapons much earlier in the game, and possibly hold an objective or two from the first turn.

The Cultists are basically there to hold objectives in my own deployment zone, in cover if available. The Havocs can support the Cultists in case of any enemy outflankers. I can also consider keeping them in reserves and only bring them onto the field later in the game to minimise casualties. As for the Raptors, they're basically there as a distraction/harassment unit. With a Plasma Pistol and 2 Meltaguns, they should be able to pop any heavy armour or backfield units such as Lond Fangs. Let's face it, unless you're up against IG, you're unlikely to come across any AV14 in a 1000 point game.

With that in mind, here's an updated version of List 2:

HQ

Huron Blackheart - 160pts

Elites

Troops

9 Chaos Space Marines – 157pts
- Meltagun
- Combi-Melta
- Gift of Mutation

Lord goes with these guys

15 Chaos Space Marines – 263pts
- Plasma Gun x2
- Combi-Plasma
- Gift of Mutation
- Chainaxe

15 Cultists – 85pts
- Autogun x10
- Flamer

Fast Attack

5 Raptors – 130pts
- Meltagun x2
- Gift of Mutation
- Lightning Claw
- Plasma Pistol

Heavy Support

5 Havocs - 105pts
- Autocannon x4

Aegis Defence Line - 100pts
- Quad Gun

Comes to 992 Points. With the 8pts leftover I decided just to throw a Chainaxe into the larger unit.

Id stick with the basic Lord with upgrades.
I'd also drop all of the gifts.
Raptor squad is too small and will likley die before it sees combat.
Cultist unit will be obliterated easily.

Have you tried Mark of Nurgle Spawn yet?
5 of those are very killy. Adding a Lord on a bike to that unit would also be pretty sick.

Something like this -

HQ
Chaos Lord - 150pts
- Bike
- MoN
- Black Mace
- Blight Grenades

Troops
6 CSM, Melta, Combi Melta, Rhino 143
6 CSM, Melta, Combi Melta, Rhino 143
5 Plagues x2 Plasma 150

Fast Attack
5 MoN Spawn 180 (Lord goes here)

Heavy Support

6 Havocs - 128pts
- Autocannon x4
Aegis Defence Line - 100pts
- Quad Gun

Spawn and Lord can advance with Melta CSM's in Rhino's while you have the unit of plasma plagues to protect your Havocs and claim back fielded/mid table objective.