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So if you can't DS from ongoing reserves does that mean you arrive from the table edge when delayed?

Yep, table edge

Having had a quick look at the Ongoing Reserves and Deep Strike rules, I see no mention of not being able to Deep Strike from Ongoing Reserves, unless I'm missing something somewhere else?

Or do you mean if something happens to prevent your deep strike?

It was proven over numerous threads that reserves and ongoing reserves are not the same thing, and as such one cannot declare DS or Outflank with units going into OR.

Sounds rubbish to me, especially as Ongoing Reserves states that the only difference from standard reserves rules are that they enter play at the start of the controlling player's following turn.

A delayed drop pod can't deep strike? I think you'll find it can.

 HoverBoy wrote:
It was proven over numerous threads that reserves and ongoing reserves are not the same thing, and as such one cannot declare DS or Outflank with units going into OR.

Unless you're Chaos Daemons

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
It was proven over numerous threads that reserves and ongoing reserves are not the same thing, and as such one cannot declare DS or Outflank with units going into OR.

Unless you're Chaos Daemons

This is a funny situation. Chaos Daemons can never arrive to the battlefield from a table edge. And if units can't Deep Strike from Ongoing Reserved (as a result of the mishap) in this case, how can the Chaos Daemons arrive to the battlefield? Daemonic Assault doesn't allow you to Deep Strike from Ongoing Reserves so RAW you can't deploy Delayed units ever. Am I right?

Codex>BRB demons always deep strike.

Actually, while ongoing reserves are not same as Reserves, they do follow all rules for reserves except their timing.

brb 125 wrote:"Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves."

These normal rules do include

brb page 124 wrote:Models that are arriving by Deep Strike or Outflank deploy using their special rules (see pages 36 and 40).

Reason why you cannot Outflank is that Outflank rule explicitly says you may not use Outflank when arriving from Ongoing Reserves, but DS has no such restriction.

brb page 40 wrote:When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve...

So I'd personally say you can DS from Ongoing reserves, assuming you have told the opponent that unit will arrive by Deep Strike when you put it to (Ongoing) Reserve.

Huzzah, someone who has actually read the relevant rules! The wording for Deep Strike states you must inform your opponent of your intention to DS when you place the unit in reserve. So the mishap occurs, you roll delay, and you then state that the unit will be arriving by deep strike next turn.

To answer the question, yes, if for some reason something that cannot deep strike entered ongoing reserves, it would enter from the table edge (e.g. zooming fliers (right?))

But in context of the subject line: they could still DS.

narked wrote:
Huzzah, someone who has actually read the relevant rules! The wording for Deep Strike states you must inform your opponent of your intention to DS when you place the unit in reserve. So the mishap occurs, you roll delay, and you then state that the unit will be arriving by deep strike next turn.

Except, ironically, you havent

DURING DEPLOYMENT you declare the organisation of reserves (p124, "preparing reserves") which is the allowance to declare units as DS. Ongoing reservfes is *after* deployment.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DURING DEPLOYMENT you declare the organisation of reserves (p124, "preparing reserves") which is the allowance to declare units as DS. Ongoing reservfes is *after* deployment.

But if you have declared the unit as DS during deployment, that declaration doesn't go away just because the unit mishaps and goes to Ongoing reserves.
So if the unit has 1) Started the Game in reserve and 2) You have specified that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, you will have fulfilled both criteria required for DS even if the unit goes back to Ongoing Reserves, haven't you?

To put Luide's point more briefly - if the unit mishapped into ongoing reserves, it hasn't deployed yet. So you still fulfil the requirement to declare before deployment.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

narked wrote:
Huzzah, someone who has actually read the relevant rules! The wording for Deep Strike states you must inform your opponent of your intention to DS when you place the unit in reserve. So the mishap occurs, you roll delay, and you then state that the unit will be arriving by deep strike next turn.

Except, ironically, you havent

DURING DEPLOYMENT you declare the organisation of reserves (p124, "preparing reserves") which is the allowance to declare units as DS. Ongoing reservfes is *after* deployment.

Except I have, as it happens. I've checked all the relevant areas. And to make it easy for you, I'll include it all below.

P.124
"When deploying their armies, players chan choose not to deploy up to half their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later ..... During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his Reserves to his opponent."

That's the only section that refers to what you must declare at deployment. So at deployment, you simply state that they are kept in Reserve. The Deep Strike rule later adds to this, but we'll get to that later.

P.125
"Units in Ongoing Reserves always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves."

So, Ongoing Reserves follow all the Reserves rules, apart from you don't roll to see if they turn up. No restrictions on how they arrive. If anything, I'd say they've not even left Reserves yet due to not actually arriving on the table, therefore are still subject to the method of arrival already chosen.

P.36
"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

See how that rule states "when placing the unit in Reserve". Not "during deployment." Sure, normally "when placing the unit in Reserve" is "during deployment", but entering Ongoing Reserves is also placing the unit in Reserve. So this issue can be looked at in two ways. Either, when you get a Delayed result from a Mishap, you don't actually leave Reserves, and therefore you're declaration to Deep Strike is still valid, or you leave Reserves, the Delayed result puts you back in Reserves, at which point you declare that you will be entering play by Deep Strike, and you're fine to Deep Strike.

Example:
1. Vanguard Veterans are declared as in Reserve during deployment. I tell my opponent they will deploy using Deep Strike. Are the rules satisfied? Yes.
2. They arrive on Turn 2, but scatter onto an enemy unit, triggering a Mishap. The result is Delayed. As I place them back in Reserve, I state they will be arriving by Deep Strike. Are the rules satisfied? Yes. Did I do anything they said I couldn't? No.

narked wrote:

P.36
"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

See how that rule states "when placing the unit in Reserve". Not "during deployment." Sure, normally "when placing the unit in Reserve" is "during deployment", but entering Ongoing Reserves is also placing the unit in Reserve. So this issue can be looked at in two ways. Either, when you get a Delayed result from a Mishap, you don't actually leave Reserves, and therefore you're declaration to Deep Strike is still valid, or you leave Reserves, the Delayed result puts you back in Reserves, at which point you declare that you will be entering play by Deep Strike, and you're fine to Deep Strike.

My counter-argument to this is that 'Ongoing Reserves' says it uses all the rules for 'Reserves'. Choosing to Deep Strike is a DS rule, and not a rule covered by 'Ongoing Reserves'. It's not a strong argument by any means, but I felt it valid enough to point out. To me it has a lot of similarities to how FnP/Eternal Warrior/Instant Death work. They are independent rules that affect one another. IMO, the 'Ongoing Reserves' doesn't give permission for Deep Strike rules to work with the Reserves rule after the game has started. I can see the argument going either way, but this is only my first point.

There are 2 conditions that need to be met to be able to Deep Strike, the second one you have not met. You must start the game in Reserve. When you go into 'Ongoing Reserves' you are not starting in reserve, you are entering reserve. Since you are no longer starting there, there is no option to choose/re-choose how you wish to deploy. This would also be correct if a unit arrived by Deep Strike and mishap since Ongoing Reserves triggers. So, any unit that enters 'Ongoing Reserve' will have to arrive on the following turn from a player's board edge, unless there is another rule that specifically addresses otherwise. Demons have already been mentioned, and IIRC, Drop Pods also state they ALWAYS enter play via Deep Strike. Even if they don't, the BRB covers it by stating that permanently Immobile Vehicles will enter via Deep Strike if in reserves (any form).

So Demons and Drop Pods should always Deep Strike if they Mishap, as long as it's in their codex. Necron Monoliths are on the fence. Terminators, Jump Infantry, Deathmarks, etc, will all come in from a board edge (unless they too have a rule stating otherwise.) Only other things I can think of as being fuzzy are possibly Tyranids. Spore Pods are Immobile, but they aren't vehicles, though I would assume the same thing as Drop Pods would apply.

narked wrote:
Example:
1. Vanguard Veterans are declared as in Reserve during deployment. I tell my opponent they will deploy using Deep Strike. Are the rules satisfied? Yes.
2. They arrive on Turn 2, but scatter onto an enemy unit, triggering a Mishap. The result is Delayed. As I place them back in Reserve, I state they will be arriving by Deep Strike. Are the rules satisfied? Yes. Did I do anything they said I couldn't? No.

1 is correct. 2 can be argued that they DID start there, but whether or not they STILL count as being there is debatable as they aren't placed back into Reserve, they are entering Reserve at a point in the game later than the start.

Any unit that starts the game in reserve, mishaps on Deep Strike and goes back in to ongoing reserves HAS started the game in reserve.

There is no going back into reserves, there is no going back into 'Ongoing Reserves'. There is only 'entering Ongoing Reserves' (usually Flyers) and 'Placed in Ongoing Reserves' (Mishap Table). While subtle, there is a difference.

The concern is whether being on the table nullifies the 'Starting in Reserve' part. I support that it does, since you are on the board, and you enter play, ie. are no longer starting there, as the method for you being in reserve is now different than when you initially declared them to be there. By stating that they are going back is to imply that they have yet to nullify their 'starting in reserve' portion of the DS restriction. It also opens the door to whether units that have successfully DS'd in can do so again if they go back into Reserves/Ongoing Reserves.

With Drop Pods/Demons, there isn't much of an issue. These both state they will always Deep Strike. Jump Infantry/Terminators is another issue altogether. I don't think the only penalty for a Mishap should be the delay of a turn unless a rule expressly permits it. It's like treating Jump Infantry/Terminators as if they are have the Demons rule, where they always enter play via Deep Strike, which they do not have anywhere in their codex. Players MAY put both of these units into normal reserves, and they can arrive from the board edge. This is the extent that 'Ongoing Reserves' covers, and forces them to use the Reserves rule for subsequent turns, again unless explicitly stated otherwise. Players can't apply a rule from one codex to a different codex if they don't say the same thing. Exceptions have been FAQ'd

Stating that things goes back into reserves causes a few more issues. These units would only be treated as if they had failed their Reserves roll, and still be in their opponents face the next turn, even BA players wouldn't lose 'Descent of Angels', and not lose any ground. Let's say Deathmarks respond to the first unit that his opponent brings in from reserve and then Mishap's back out. Will they be able to Deep Strike again to the next unit(s) that his opponent brings in on that same turn, effectively removing the penalty for the Mishap altogether? Can Zooming Flyers that Deep Strike, Zoom of the board a turn or two later, and since they started in Deep Strike Reserve, HAVE to DS again the next turn? If Zahndrekh is on the board, will Necron Flyers get to use his 'Phased Reinforcements' rule for a second time in 1 game? What happens when a unit 'Outflank' and goes back into reserve?

Not expecting an answer on these, just pointing out that simplifying things to say they 'go back' into reserves creates a conflict with what the rule actually says. While we don't have a ruling one way or the other, Im supporting that once they attempt to make their Deep Strike, they no longer ARE starting the game in reserve. A mishap doesn't restore that condition.

The key point is that when Deep Strikers mishap they haven't actually been deployed...that's why they're placed rather than enter as flyers do. So I'd argue that you actually have it the wrong way round...mishappers haven't nullified the initial decision, but flyers have as they were on the board.

 Akar wrote:
There is no going back into reserves, there is no going back into 'Ongoing Reserves'. There is only 'entering Ongoing Reserves' (usually Flyers) and 'Placed in Ongoing Reserves' (Mishap Table). While subtle, there is a difference.

The concern is whether being on the table nullifies the 'Starting in Reserve' part. I support that it does, since you are on the board, and you enter play, ie. are no longer starting there, as the method for you being in reserve is now different than when you initially declared them to be there. By stating that they are going back is to imply that they have yet to nullify their 'starting in reserve' portion of the DS restriction. It also opens the door to whether units that have successfully DS'd in can do so again if they go back into Reserves/Ongoing Reserves.

With Drop Pods/Demons, there isn't much of an issue. These both state they will always Deep Strike. Jump Infantry/Terminators is another issue altogether. I don't think the only penalty for a Mishap should be the delay of a turn unless a rule expressly permits it. It's like treating Jump Infantry/Terminators as if they are have the Demons rule, where they always enter play via Deep Strike, which they do not have anywhere in their codex. Players MAY put both of these units into normal reserves, and they can arrive from the board edge. This is the extent that 'Ongoing Reserves' covers, and forces them to use the Reserves rule for subsequent turns, again unless explicitly stated otherwise. Players can't apply a rule from one codex to a different codex if they don't say the same thing. Exceptions have been FAQ'd

Stating that things goes back into reserves causes a few more issues. These units would only be treated as if they had failed their Reserves roll, and still be in their opponents face the next turn, even BA players wouldn't lose 'Descent of Angels', and not lose any ground. Let's say Deathmarks respond to the first unit that his opponent brings in from reserve and then Mishap's back out. Will they be able to Deep Strike again to the next unit(s) that his opponent brings in on that same turn, effectively removing the penalty for the Mishap altogether? Can Zooming Flyers that Deep Strike, Zoom of the board a turn or two later, and since they started in Deep Strike Reserve, HAVE to DS again the next turn? If Zahndrekh is on the board, will Necron Flyers get to use his 'Phased Reinforcements' rule for a second time in 1 game? What happens when a unit 'Outflank' and goes back into reserve?

Not expecting an answer on these, just pointing out that simplifying things to say they 'go back' into reserves creates a conflict with what the rule actually says. While we don't have a ruling one way or the other, Im supporting that once they attempt to make their Deep Strike, they no longer ARE starting the game in reserve. A mishap doesn't restore that condition.

If you mishapped you were never on the board to begin with.
Example; If you mishap within 12" of Coteaz whilst DS'ing will he shoot you? (No)

You don't think the only penalty for a mishap, that happens to be titled "Delayed", should be a 1 turn delay? That's exactly the point of that particular mishap. The other choices cover the nasty stuff (ie misplaced or completely wiped).

When Deep Striking 'Place a model on the table then roll'. How can you never be on the table, when you put a model on the table before rolling the scatter and THEN a mishap if you meet the requirements for it? Where is the rule that says one way or the other?

Coteaz ability still triggers, but since the model that mishap'd isn't within the range or LoS it isn't any different to a model that successfully DS'd out of his range/LoS. (This is going off a recall of what I remember Coteaz rule being. It's XD6" and LoS IIRC, but could be wrong.) Great example though.

Yes, I AM saying that Delayed means more than just being off the board for a turn. It ALSO includes losing other benefits that would've been granted to a unit that didn't mishap. It's not treated like a failed Reserves roll, it follows a different set of rules with a different outcome.

EDIT: @Super - Sorry didn't see your post till after I got this typed out. Again, I agree that is how it SHOULD be played, but it creates a double standard for how 'Ongoing Reserves' is applied. Which I will be okay with an FAQ on it. The only thing that has changed is the method by which they enter 'Ongoing Reserves', not the application of it. Flyers have to move off the board to qualify. Deep Striking Mishaps don't always occur by scattering off the board.

 Akar wrote:
My counter-argument to this is that 'Ongoing Reserves' says it uses all the rules for 'Reserves'. Choosing to Deep Strike is a DS rule, and not a rule covered by 'Ongoing Reserves'. It's not a strong argument by any means, but I felt it valid enough to point out.

Very much correct, it is not strong argument at all.

 Akar wrote:
To me it has a lot of similarities to how FnP/Eternal Warrior/Instant Death work. They are independent rules that affect one another. IMO, the 'Ongoing Reserves' doesn't give permission for Deep Strike rules to work with the Reserves rule after the game has started. I can see the argument going either way, but this is only my first point.

Ongoing Reserves give exactly same permissions as Reserves do. Only exception is that you come automatically and that some special rules might have clauses they don't work with Ongoing Reserves.

 Akar wrote:
There are 2 conditions that need to be met to be able to Deep Strike, the second one you have not met. You must start the game in Reserve.

What are you talking about? I've definitely met the requirement for the unit to start the game in Reserve. If it hadn't started the game in Reserve, it wouldn't have been able to DS at all.

 Akar wrote:
When you go into 'Ongoing Reserves' you are not starting in reserve, you are entering reserve.

Technically correct, but doesn't matter at all. This doesn't change the fact that the unit started the game in Reserve.

 Akar wrote:
Since you are no longer starting there, there is no option to choose/re-choose how you wish to deploy.

This I agree. So unit that Deep Strikes to board from reserves, must also Deep Strike to board from ongoing reserves.

 Akar wrote:
This would also be correct if a unit arrived by Deep Strike and mishap since Ongoing Reserves triggers. So, any unit that enters 'Ongoing Reserve' will have to arrive on the following turn from a player's board edge, unless there is another rule that specifically addresses otherwise.

Personally, I think it's the other way around: Unit that's forced to go into Ongoing Reserves by DS mishap may not come in from player's board edge, but that is something that isn't actually clear by the rules.

So let me recap my position:
I place unit of Terminators in Reserves, telling my opponent I will Deep strike them.
Game starts. For the rest of the game, I have met the DS criteria for this unit: 1) The unit started the Game in reserve and 2) I have specified that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike. (page 36)
Turn 2: Unit mishaps and gets Delayed results.
Turn 3: As Ongoing Reserves work exactly like normal Reserves, except that they arrive Automatically at next turn (page 125) and I've met the criteria for DS, I may now DS the termies as they arrive from Ongoing Reserves.

So you think that Zooming flyers that go into 'Ongoing Reserves' must also Deep Strike?

'Ongoing Reserves' does not give the same permissions as Reserves do. It follows the normal rules for 'Reserves'. Deep Strike isn't a normal Reserves rule, it's a separate rule that interacts with the Reserves rule. There are things that use the Deep Strike rule that don't use Reserves, unlike the Outflank rule which is entirely dependent on the Reserves rule, so had to be addressed there specifically. This supports that Deep Strike isn't a part of normal Reserves. It's the Deep Strike rule that states that units must be in reserve, not the reserve rule that says all Deep Striking units must be in reserve.

Being placed or entering into 'Ongoing Reserves' means you use the normal rules for Reserves on P.124. This overrides any previous deployment methods, which includes Deep Strike. If you're still using the 'Deep Strike' rule w/o a rule stating that you do, then you aren't following the normal rules for Reserves. Nothing on pg 124/125 mentions Deep Strike beyond Immobile Vehicles. This is the only Deep Strike provision allowed by normal Reserves rule to the Deep Strike rule. Ongoing reserves makes no other provision to allow units to continue to keep Deep Strike after you have attempted it.

If you're entering from Deep Strike after placed/entering 'Ongoing Reserves', you're not using the normal rules for Reserves, you're using the Deep Strike rule. That's not what 'Ongoing Reserves' is.

The idea behind the Delayed mishap is not that it hit a unit and that caused the delay. The placement on a unit triggers a mishap, which happens before the unit is placed onto the board. The initial model is there purely to determine positioning. It's not technically on the board and in play until the deep strike has been resolved.

That is one interpretation.

After you roll on the Mishap table, the Deep Strike has resolved regardless of the outcome. If you roll 'Delayed' then you are placed from Deep Strike and placed into Reserves as a result of Ongoing Reserves. You are not placed into Reserves via whatever method you failed to perform and cause the mishap. You use the normal rules for reserves from that point on, Deep Strike isn't an option for those units that don't have a provision for them to keep it. Deep Strike, much like Outflank, is resolved once it has been attempted.

This has been a very enlightening discussion, and I appreciate all the references that have caused me to look at the rules in question from a different perspective. Again I agree that models that mishap into 'Ongoing Reserves' SHOULD be able to retain their ability to Deep Strike, even without a rule like Demons/Drop Pods. However doing so means that anything that goes into 'Ongoing Reserves', on any turn, would be forced to use the same method of deployment that they initially used. The rules supporting that they do keep it are very weak when compared to not allowing it. Both could be correct, but I must stand on the stronger side of the issue until it gets changed.

That would be quite hilarious - deep strike a flyer, shoot, leave board, deep strike in the same place, shoot, leave board, deep strike in the same place, offload troops, shoot...

You can not shoot and Flat out in the same turn.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can not shoot and Flat out in the same turn.

You can, however, move in the subsequent movement phase.

Narked - nope, again during deployment you have to describe the organisation of your reserves, which includes your decision to DS or not.