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Let's say that Old Zogwort turns Celestine into a squig.

What does this mean for Miraculous Intervention? The FAQ says that it can be used against attacks that remove her from play. Does she count as "removed from play" when she is replaced by the squig? Does she count as "removed from play" when the squig dies? Or does the rule no longer apply?

The third one seems the simplest, but I think it's the one least supported by the rules (the squig replaces her, which means she is removed). The first one, by contrast, seems to be the most supported (she's replaced, therefore she's been removed, so put down her counter) but is also the strangest (potentially resulting in Celestine being alive and there being a squig).

Now that I think about it, there could be a KP exploit there...

Thoughts?

There's a number of different RAW arguments, due to loose GW wording.

Zogworts power replaces you with a squig, with none of the original characters abilities or wargear. It never kills you, so you are not removed from play as a casualty (unlike Spawning someone) , which makes the issue a bit muddy.

Does replaces = Removed From Play ? Depends on how you want to argue it.

My local plays it the way i think it was intended - that the character's previous abilities are gone and the squig is the new form for that character. It also simplifies the KP generator shenanigans.

I always ask at tournaments though, as different interpretations do crop up, and i'm fine running him under other takes in the rule, on the rare occasions that i run him.

Normally i'm more a Big Mek guy

Well, if we want to go RAW, replacing one model with another requires removing the original from play.

But, the common sense idea of both of these rules sort of conflicts. Miraculous Intervention is clearly designed to make sure that Celestine can always come back no matter what. Meanwhile, Zogwort's Curse is designed to be a JotWW-type insta-kill that leaves the enemy with a free squig.

reaper with no name wrote:
Well, if we want to go RAW, replacing one model with another requires removing the original from play.

But, the common sense idea of both of these rules sort of conflicts. Miraculous Intervention is clearly designed to make sure that Celestine can always come back no matter what. Meanwhile, Zogwort's Curse is designed to be a JotWW-type insta-kill that leaves the enemy with a free squig.

Except that it's not an insta-kill, it's a replacement effect. Replace=\=remove, so Zogwort's ability takes precedence over MI.

I've seen people argue that since you are removing SC's model to replace it with a squig model, that's grounds to stand for the use of MI. I think that's just silly. Especially because even if you argued it that way, the tabletop avatar of SC is a squig with no abilities immediately when the power takes effect. Since the transformation MI would be responding to has to be triggered to take effect, and the effect is immediately resolved and results in the loss of the power, even the "it removes the model" argument doesn't cut it.

If you are going RAW Zogwart does not have a BS so cannot use a PSA

MarkyMark wrote:
If you are going RAW Zogwart does not have a BS so cannot use a PSA

Its not a psychic shooting attack , according to the codex or faq.

As to the general question, its isn't a "remove from play" effect, its a rather unique "replace" effect. So the FAQ doesn't stand.

The problem would come if her she was lying on the field waiting to res and the squig ran off to do whatever it wanted. If she resurrected what happens? Does the Squig disappear? Does the squig turn back into her?

OH yea it is his speicial ability! my bad.

You can use the Necron FAQ as a precedent. That faq says that when a model with a return-to-play ability (RP for Necrons) is replaced, it cannot use it to return to play.

MarkyMark wrote:
If you are going RAW Zogwart does not have a BS so cannot use a PSA

and that is still a hilarious arguement that nids won't let slide even today when really it's a simple fix of giving zogwort bs2 like the rest of the orks unlike genestealers who had no fluff of using the powers in the first place. *shrug* oh well. So the consensus here so far is that Zogwarts effect> MI then?