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We had this argument on MC's firing overwatch. Fateweaver got charged by a juggernaut lord of khorne. I went to use Daemonic gaze, boon and breath on him. My opponent stated I'm only allowed to fire one weapon as overwatch. The BRB states MC's can fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase and I get 1 more for master of sorcery. Am I allowed to fire all 3 or just 1 for overwatch?

Overwatch is a standard shooting attack with all shots resolved as snap shots.

icefire78 wrote:
We had this argument on MC's firing overwatch. Fateweaver got charged by a juggernaut lord of khorne. I went to use Daemonic gaze, boon and breath on him. My opponent stated I'm only allowed to fire one weapon as overwatch. The BRB states MC's can fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase and I get 1 more for master of sorcery. Am I allowed to fire all 3 or just 1 for overwatch?

Should be all 3. We discussed "shooting attack" a while back and how GW uses it to describe a Model's "shooting"

ty. Our TO ruled that I only shoot 1 of my abilities. I was sure that was wrong

The only thing you couldn't have done would be Psychic shooting attacks. Don't know if any of those fall in that category.

 Kevin949 wrote:
The only thing you couldn't have done would be Psychic shooting attacks. Don't know if any of those fall in that category.

Nope Chaos Daemons don't use Psy Powers.

I was the one who started the discusion last time of what a shooting attack was regarding the psykick puppet shot.

The closest we got to an awser, as far as I know, is that a shooting attack is the shooting of one weapon. The argumentation was that even though "a shooting attack" is never defined it starts getting interesting under the poison rule. As it states that a model attacking with one poison attack gets the poison rule for it's shooting attack (or something.) This would leave razorwings abel to piggyback poison of it's rockets and darklances. Something I do not think was inteded. Mind you, I do not think that was intensionally, as I do not think they have defined what a shooting attack is, they just toss the wording around.

As for owerwatching for MC's I do belive it states that you are allowed to fire two weapons in the shooting phase.* Not in the assault phase when overwatch is carried out. So one weapon. I do not know about the daemon wording on your special abilaty regarding overwatch.

*Regarding the wording on MC shooting. RAW it would apear that you are allowed to shoot weapons during your oponents shooting phase. This is of course silly, but it serves as a fine example of the linguistic abilaties of the GW people. They have only existed for 37 yeasrs, it is a shame that they do not do a better job. Magic the Gathering that is only 19 years old hire people who specialice in these things, it is odd that GW should not do the same.

 Niiai wrote:
As for owerwatching for MC's I do belive it states that you are allowed to fire two weapons in the shooting phase.* Not in the assault phase when overwatch is carried out. So one weapon. I do not know about the daemon wording on your special abilaty regarding overwatch.

""An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack...""

So you state that a MC is allowed to fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase normally, but is not allowed to fire 2 weapons in Overwatch, despite what the rule above states? That must mean that a MC cannot normally fire 2 weapons. Which is it ?

Well here there are two problems with the rules. The second problem that comes up is that ""An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."" sort of has an itch with "can fire two of theyr weapons each shooting phase" but I would read this as the MC being abel to shoot both weapons but RAW currently needs to be FAQ.

But we are still not past the first problem witch is "What is a shooting attack" and that as far as poison is conserned seems to refer to shooting with one weapon only. So ""An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."" could potensialy mean shooting with one weapon. It is never states:

Edit: I re-read the rules for poison (mind you I got it second hand the last time) and it is not a good defenision of what a shooting attack is. However the rules for rending (second paragraf) does help. If a shooting attack is an attack with all of the weapons then they would all get the benefits of rending. Imagine bolterfire from a landraider getting rending because an autocannon is also fiering. Of course, this is so badly defined you will just have to discus this with your oponent before the match.

There is no rules question that a MC could overwatch with 2 weapons. And Master of Sorcery lets you fire one more then normal.

And Daemonic Gifts are not psychic powers, they are just a type of equipment that a model can use. Some are melee weapons, some are shooting weapons, some are bonus abilities.


Therefore, a Lord of Change with Master of Sorcery could fire 3 weapons in overwatch. Subject to normal restrictions.

 Niiai wrote:
Well here there are two problems with the rules. The second problem that comes up is that ""An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."" sort of has an itch with "can fire two of theyr weapons each shooting phase" but I would read this as the MC being abel to shoot both weapons but RAW currently needs to be FAQ.

No issue with RAW here

But we are still not past the first problem witch is "What is a shooting attack" and that as far as poison is conserned seems to refer to shooting with one weapon only. So ""An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."" could potensialy mean shooting with one weapon. It is never states:

You haven't shown there to be a problem. To make a shooting attack you follow the sequence laid out on page 12.

Edit: I re-read the rules for poison (mind you I got it second hand the last time) and it is not a good defenision of what a shooting attack is. However the rules for rending (second paragraf) does help. If a shooting attack is an attack with all of the weapons then they would all get the benefits of rending. Imagine bolterfire from a landraider getting rending because an autocannon is also fiering. Of course, this is so badly defined you will just have to discus this with your oponent before the match.

They would not get the benefits of rending, because the weapon has rending, not the model. Therefore any attacks with that weapon rend. Any attacks with any other weapons do not. (unless they also have Rending)

 Niiai wrote:
*Regarding the wording on MC shooting. RAW it would apear that you are allowed to shoot weapons during your oponents shooting phase.

That's not correct whatsoever - but you keep tilting at that windmill.

rigeld2, I know it isen't right. But it is in there.

Fragile, what is "a shooting attack"? I am asking on the behalf of puppet master on a vehicle/MC:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/484825.page

Just reread my posts in that thread for that answer. Page 12 sums it up nicely though under Nominate Unit to Shoot and Shooting sequence.

Pg 21 under Resolve Overwatch Paragraph 3:

"An Overwatch attack is resolved as a regular shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's assault phase) and uses the regular rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and So on..."

Pg 48 clearly states a MC can fire two weapons, Master of Sorcery adds a 3rd. This all makes perfect sense and seems like your opponent just didn't want to get zapped,

Edit
May as well be up front about it if I am going to quote it.

Bibliography
Adam Troke, Jeremy Vetock and Mat Ward. Warhammer 40,000: Rulebook. 6th. Memphs: Games Workshop Limited. , 2012. Small Rule Book. 20 November 2012.

Unless Heavy Bolters and Assault cannons only get to fire one shot, deamons should get to fire as many weapons as they're entitled to.

Fragile wrote:
""During the Shooting phase,a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.""

""When a vehicle fires, it uses its own Ballistic Skill characteristic, and shoots like any other unit.""

There are a variety of other places that refer to Shooting Attacks from a unit... Out of Range/LOS. etc..

None of these entries define if the woring "a shooting attack" is the shooting of one weapon or the shooting of all the weapons legaly available to shoot through other rules. Under "multiple weapons" it only states that a model can only shoot one of them. Under the exeptions to those rules the MC rules, the bike rules with double passanger and the vehicle rules it never states weather a shooting attack is shooting with all the weapons or just making many shooting attacks against the same target.

Fragile wrote:
Just reread my posts in that thread for that answer. Page 12 sums it up nicely though under Nominate Unit to Shoot and Shooting sequence.

I am sorry for being so anal about this, but there is nothing on page 12 that defines the difference between "a shooting attack" and "firing one weapon" and "firing all possible weapons". I am not saying you are wrong, it is just that if the logic "firing all possible weapons" is the defenition of a shooting attack then things get more interesting later on. Under rending second paragraf "Similarly, if a model "is firing all possible weapons" (read makes a shooting attack) with a weapon that has the Rending special rule, a To Wound roll of 6 wounds automaticaly, regardless of Toughness, and is resolved at AP 2." This means that if a dreadnought is firing an assault cannon and a flamer the flamer also gets the bennefits of rending, witch is just mad. Therefore I am lead to belive that "a shooting attack" is the firing of one weapon.

In the case of puppet master that will have a lot say wheen shooting at landraiders. For the case of can MC's overwatch it would imply that eather MC's get to shoot one weapon or it would mean that if you charge a dreadnought with a heavy flamer and an autocannon it get's to overwatch with both weapons and the flamer has rending. My argumentation is dubius at best as it is clerny not intended that you should be searching through special rules to get a definition of what a shooting attack is. However, it is never stated any other place.

Why am I being so anal about this? Because as it is it is very badly worded what a shooting attack is. To the OP I think the best thing would be to discus it with your oponent. I think RAI you should be allowed to shoot with at least two guns from the MC rule and probably one more from the special rule I am not familiar with. However, it is not in black and white what is the right thing in this situvasion. You should settled it beforehand of the game until GW makes an update that clarifies this.

Not sure if you have the english book or not, but that's not what rending says. "If a model makes a shooting attack with a weapon that has the rending special rule...." That's vastly different than what you're proposing.

Also, a shooting attack is defined as firing one equipped weapon, in normal situations. There are "advanced rules" that allow some models the ability to fire more than one. And there are some "advanced rules" that prohibit ever firing more than 1.

The rule you're looking for about firing weapons is on page 51, btw, oddly it's not in the rules for the shooting phase. It's under "more than one weapon".

How the hell is "making a shooting attack" badly worded?

Yes Kevin I know this. However if you are making a shooting attack for each weapon then they are separate shooting attacks. If a shooting attack is the firing of all weapons then lesser weapons "piggyback" the rending rule as it does not differentiate between the weapons shooting implying that a dreadnought (or something else firing more then one weapon) is in fact making several shooting attacks and not just one.

The book never defines what "a shooting attack" actually is. If you can find the page that defines it, I would be very happy. The neather page 12, 20-21 "overwatch", 51 "more then one weapon", 45 "bikes & jetbikes", 71 "shooting with vehicles", 80-81 "flying rules" or 423 "puppet master" defines the term "shooting attack" and often uses the plural "shooting attacks" or just "attacks" to throw a monkey wrench into it all. It is in fact quite badly defined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Testify wrote:
How the hell is "making a shooting attack" badly worded?

Making a shooting attack is quite clearly defined. It is somebody shooting.

However, "gets to make a shooting attack" is not clearly defines as "a shooting attack" can refer to shooting with -one- ranged weapon or "shooting with as many ranged weapons you are legally allowed to fire during a regular shooting phase." In the last instance is he making "a shooting attack" or is he making "several shooting attacks consisting of firing one weapon each time"? When does this become relevant? during over watch, the baldy worded rending rule and also the physick power puppet master.

 Niiai wrote:
Yes Kevin I know this. However if you are making a shooting attack for each weapon then they are separate shooting attacks. If a shooting attack is the firing of all weapons then lesser weapons "piggyback" the rending rule as it does not differentiate between the weapons shooting implying that a dreadnought (or something else firing more then one weapon) is in fact making several shooting attacks and not just one.

The book never defines what "a shooting attack" actually is. If you can find the page that defines it, I would be very happy. The neather page 12, 20-21 "overwatch", 51 "more then one weapon", 45 "bikes & jetbikes", 71 "shooting with vehicles", 80-81 "flying rules" or 423 "puppet master" defines the term "shooting attack" and often uses the plural "shooting attacks" or just "attacks" to throw a monkey wrench into it all. It is in fact quite badly defined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Testify wrote:
How the hell is "making a shooting attack" badly worded?

Making a shooting attack is quite clearly defined. It is somebody shooting.

However, "gets to make a shooting attack" is not clearly defines as "a shooting attack" can refer to shooting with -one- ranged weapon or "shooting with as many ranged weapons you are legally allowed to fire during a regular shooting phase." In the last instance is he making "a shooting attack" or is he making "several shooting attacks consisting of firing one weapon each time"? When does this become relevant? during over watch, the baldy worded rending rule and also the physick power puppet master.

It does define it, "The Shooting Sequence". Also, directly above that chart is the sentence "Once you have completed steps 1 through 5 for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack..."

Pretty clearly defined there, Niiai.

 Niiai wrote:

Making a shooting attack is quite clearly defined. It is somebody shooting.

However, "gets to make a shooting attack" is not clearly defines as "a shooting attack" can refer to shooting with -one- ranged weapon or "shooting with as many ranged weapons you are legally allowed to fire during a regular shooting phase." In the last instance is he making "a shooting attack" or is he making "several shooting attacks consisting of firing one weapon each time"? When does this become relevant? during over watch, the baldy worded rending rule and also the physick power puppet master.

I wouldn't say it was badly worded at all.

ooOoo I could kiss you Kevin! Where where you when the puppet master was discussed? None in that thread managed to find it.

Exelent! Puppet master can shoot all weapons on a tank, a MC get to over watch with two guns (3 in the OP original question) and the rending rule is heading for an ereta or FAQ in the near future. :-)

I will tell the others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ooOoo I could kiss you Kevin! Where where you when the puppet master was discussed? None in that thread managed to find it.

Exelent! Puppet master can shoot all weapons on a tank, a MC get to over watch with two guns (3 in the OP original question) and the rending rule is heading for an ereta or FAQ in the near future. :-)

I will tell the others.

 Niiai wrote:
rigeld2, I know it isen't right. But it is in there.

My point is that your statement is not correct. There are no rules allowing you to shoot during your opponents phase.
Please stop asserting that without evidence.