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Just wondering if anyone can tell me which lore of magic is good at countering each race?

For Example: I know lore of Metal is great versus WOC but thats about it

A little help please........

Well, it really depends on what they're taking and what you're taking. If WoC goes Throgg and has nothing but trolls, Metal will do absolutely nothing to them.

I think it's often safer to get a magic that synergizes with your army as opposed to trying to counter the enemy. Because you don't always know what the enemy has. And you get random spells anyway. If you guess wrong, you could have a relatively useless magic phase. If you have magic that buffs/helps you, it's pretty much always going to be beneficial.

 Guardsman76 wrote:
Just wondering if anyone can tell me which lore of magic is good at countering each race?

For Example: I know lore of Metal is great versus WOC but thats about it

A little help please........

Fire is awesome against elves of all flavors.
Death and Shadow are great against ogres, dwarves, lizardmen and orcs (low initiative scores makes the big spells deadly)
Metal is good against dwarves and warriors of chaos.
Light is good against daemons and vampires. (look at the lore attribute)

Beast, Heavens and Life depend more on your own build than that of your opponent.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Guardsman76 wrote:
Just wondering if anyone can tell me which lore of magic is good at countering each race?

For Example: I know lore of Metal is great versus WOC but thats about it

A little help please........

Fire is awesome against elves of all flavors.
Death and Shadow are great against ogres, dwarves, lizardmen and orcs (low initiative scores makes the big spells deadly)
Metal is good against dwarves and warriors of chaos.
Light is good against daemons and vampires. (look at the lore attribute)

Beast, Heavens and Life depend more on your own build than that of your opponent.

-Matt

Thanks

Metal also makes Bretonnians cry. All those 2+/1+ armours brings tears to my eyes if i see a wizard with the lore of metal.

Just don't bother casting at the unit with the Prophetess, between the Blessing and her MR, they get a 4+ ward save...

I would have to say...Shadow and Life are all-around great. Death is awesome against Dwarfs, Ogres, and Saurus. I personally don't think Metal is all that effective, even against high armour armies. Shadow or Life would probably serve you better.

Fire is nice to have as a backup. Fireball is actually a very good spell.

I'm generally inclined to disagree with the conventional wisdom that metal is good against Dwarves. There's a bit of a hangover with the thinking that dwarves are particularly well armored- generally speaking a lot of the competitive builds you run into will just have great weapon dwarfs sporting a 5+.

I'd say metal has some mileage against Empire...

One of the tricks with Metal is looking past the signature spell - which is highly conditional anyway, and looking at the key spells - Enchanted Blades, Glittering Robe, and Final Transmutation. Two of these spells are buff spells and the damage spell is generally unaffected by the target (it does suck a bit against Ogres).

To me, that really says that if you have units that would benefit a lot from having their attacks become flaming, magical attacks with +1 to hit, or you have a lot of 4+ or 5+ armour saves (as these benefit the most from becoming 2 better), the Metal should do alright for you, no matter who your opponent.


So, as DukeRustfield said, you're a lot better off synergising your magic with your own army, than looking for counters to the enemy.

Lore of Life - everything. Throne of Vines is the epitome of overpowered magic in 8th.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Lore of Life - everything. Throne of Vines is the epitome of overpowered magic in 8th.

No. That is the one spell you need to dispel to counter life.....After that it is dwellers and you have locked down their magic capabilities.

thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Lore of Life - everything. Throne of Vines is the epitome of overpowered magic in 8th.

No. That is the one spell you need to dispel to counter life.....After that it is dwellers and you have locked down their magic capabilities.

Most of the time, you can only dispel it in your next magic phase as Throne allows you to ignore the miscast caused by its own casting attempt. I do not know if this has been fixed yet, but it was ridiculous.

How what is in doubt? Rules state that spells are resolved before rolling for miscast result...

 Sigvatr wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Lore of Life - everything. Throne of Vines is the epitome of overpowered magic in 8th.

No. That is the one spell you need to dispel to counter life.....After that it is dwellers and you have locked down their magic capabilities.

Most of the time, you can only dispel it in your next magic phase as Throne allows you to ignore the miscast caused by its own casting attempt. I do not know if this has been fixed yet, but it was ridiculous.

Ok, so any army with access to life bar Book HE needs to double six one spell to make their magic phase work. OOOH BROKEN.

thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Lore of Life - everything. Throne of Vines is the epitome of overpowered magic in 8th.

No. That is the one spell you need to dispel to counter life.....After that it is dwellers and you have locked down their magic capabilities.

Most of the time, you can only dispel it in your next magic phase as Throne allows you to ignore the miscast caused by its own casting attempt. I do not know if this has been fixed yet, but it was ridiculous.

Ok, so any army with access to life bar Book HE needs to double six one spell to make their magic phase work. OOOH BROKEN.

Three cases.

1. Enemy fails to cast ToV (highly unlikely)
2a. You dispel ToV with average dice => likely that the spell gets through
2b. You dispel ToV with more than the average amount of dice => your enemy has more dice to get his other spells through, mainly Dwellers
3. Enemy rolls 2 6s and gets it through without any negative side effects, then continues to go for Dwellers.

I never said it's necessary to make your magic phase work, that's your (false) interpretation of what I said. Magic in general is damn broken in 8th and has a (too) big impact on the game, Lore of Life is a good example for magic's problematic influence on the game. And once ToV is through, you need to sacrifice your own energy dice in order to dispel it. Granted, dwarves do not care at all, but magic-heavy armies do suffer from it. Not disspelling ToV is an option...but a pretty foolish one.

@japehlio: I did not state that it was in question. I said that it should not work like that, meaning that even with ToV going through with IF, you should still suffer Miscast effects for ToV.

But then again, why do I bother with balancing 8th. It's a horrible, horrible mess that ruined WHFB for me and our local meta. GW did not even try to balance some things out and Storm of Magic showed that they do not care for tactics or sth. but for selling a premium version of Yahtzee...which is sad. *looks at Wood Elves*

...wow.

Now, I'll agree that magic has gone overboard. It's an optional part of the game that, tactically, is not optional.

Still, though. 8th edition has done some good stuff.

I know that probably didn't do much to rekindle your faith in the Warhammer scene, but this isn't really the place for that discussion. If you want to make a separate thread for some of the major problems in 8th, I'll gladly throw in my voice.

 Sigvatr wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Lore of Life - everything. Throne of Vines is the epitome of overpowered magic in 8th.

No. That is the one spell you need to dispel to counter life.....After that it is dwellers and you have locked down their magic capabilities.

Most of the time, you can only dispel it in your next magic phase as Throne allows you to ignore the miscast caused by its own casting attempt. I do not know if this has been fixed yet, but it was ridiculous.

Ok, so any army with access to life bar Book HE needs to double six one spell to make their magic phase work. OOOH BROKEN.

Three cases.

1. Enemy fails to cast ToV (highly unlikely)
2a. You dispel ToV with average dice => likely that the spell gets through
2b. You dispel ToV with more than the average amount of dice => your enemy has more dice to get his other spells through, mainly Dwellers
3. Enemy rolls 2 6s and gets it through without any negative side effects, then continues to go for Dwellers.

I never said it's necessary to make your magic phase work, that's your (false) interpretation of what I said. Magic in general is damn broken in 8th and has a (too) big impact on the game, Lore of Life is a good example for magic's problematic influence on the game. And once ToV is through, you need to sacrifice your own energy dice in order to dispel it. Granted, dwarves do not care at all, but magic-heavy armies do suffer from it. Not disspelling ToV is an option...but a pretty foolish one.

@japehlio: I did not state that it was in question. I said that it should not work like that, meaning that even with ToV going through with IF, you should still suffer Miscast effects for ToV.

But then again, why do I bother with balancing 8th. It's a horrible, horrible mess that ruined WHFB for me and our local meta. GW did not even try to balance some things out and Storm of Magic showed that they do not care for tactics or sth. but for selling a premium version of Yahtzee...which is sad. *looks at Wood Elves*

Magic is not broken at all. Look at all the Dwarf armies out there. Sure magic can be rather strong if you roll well, but that relies on rolling high for winds of magic and rolling well for casting. I've literally had multiple 12 dice magic phases where my level 4 couldn't cast a single spell. You are saying that 1 spell in lore of life, which is required to make it work, makes lore of life powerful. That is not true. Life is nowhere near being a decent lore. Simply because of the fact that you need to cast throne to make most of the spells work. As I pointed out, once you stop thrones casting, which is easy unless you are playing Book/Teclis HE(At that point you laugh at your opponent for not taking a better lore) as they need to double six it to stop it going off(In the first couple of turns, you can pour all/most of your dice into dispelling it.

Eh. Dwarf Armies have outdated rules that work with the current magic system (by working against it), but that's not exactly a good thing. And they still suffer pretty often. Double 6's can ruin their day, but they never get a chance to do the same in return.

Also, how is Life not a good Lore? The signature spell gives you a 5+ Regen save, which is cool. You can give your dudes +2 Toughness, which is awesome. Regrowth rocks, and the attribute fits into that pretty well. The two direct damage spells are the only things in the Lore that I'd call poor choices.
Honestly, I think Throne of Vines distracts people from the fact that the spells it improves are good as they are. Throne of Vines is the main reason I don't take Life more often actually, since Throne on a lvl2 is silly.

And Dwellers? If I had to name The Best spell, it be the one that stands a 50-50 chance of killing the enemy wizards with zero saves of any kind. Along with 30 to 50% of the unit he's in.

Warpsolution wrote:
Eh. Dwarf Armies have outdated rules that work with the current magic system (by working against it), but that's not exactly a good thing. And they still suffer pretty often. Double 6's can ruin their day, but they never get a chance to do the same in return.

Also, how is Life not a good Lore? The signature spell gives you a 5+ Regen save, which is cool. You can give your dudes +2 Toughness, which is awesome. Regrowth rocks, and the attribute fits into that pretty well. The two direct damage spells are the only things in the Lore that I'd call poor choices.
Honestly, I think Throne of Vines distracts people from the fact that the spells it improves are good as they are. Throne of Vines is the main reason I don't take Life more often actually, since Throne on a lvl2 is silly.

And Dwellers? If I had to name The Best spell, it be the one that stands a 50-50 chance of killing the enemy wizards with zero saves of any kind. Along with 30 to 50% of the unit he's in.

My point is, regardless of how outdated they are, dwarves demonstrate that magic isnt guaranteed. As for life, it is an average lore with two redeeming spells. One of which is needed to get the most out of lore of life. Compared to other lores, you will see how it falters. As for dwellers, I personally think it isnt as bad as everyone makes it out to be. 24" range and a 50% chance for my models to survive. I would much ratger take that than deathsnipes.