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We are discussing this on our local meta forum.

On the first round of a combat does Kharn get to re-roll his 1's to hit due to hatred or can he not because he is "hitting" a member of his own team?

Hatred says you re-roll misses.

My take is because of the codex entry wording of substituting your discards you proceed as follows:

Roll to hit, consolidate hits, re-roll misses, consolidate hits, discard misses (assign to squad mates)

What is your take?

Roll to hit, re-roll misses. Any attacks that miss again go against his squad, as when you re-roll you basically ignore the first result (some exceptions apply).

Yet "they automatically hit a friendly model" I could see both sides of the argument.

However I'd side with re-rolling of the 1s due to hatred.

also it would seem even the "automatic" hit to the friendly model is also a miss because of his weapon can never hit automatically. See Gorechild pg 59 of codex.

go figure /shrugs/

Doesn't his rule say he can never reroll those 1s for any reason? Or was that last codex?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Doesn't his rule say he can never reroll those 1s for any reason? Or was that last codex?

Certainly not the new codex

I'd say no, he cannot reroll the roll of 1 because it did not miss, unless he is on his own.

Gorechild's rule states that it hits on a 2+. The Betrayer rule states that on a To Hit roll of 1, he automatically hits a friendly model. The attacks have not "missed", so do not trigger Hatred (they "missed" their intended target, but as far as the rules are concerned, all of his attacks have hit).

Of course, if there are no friendly models within 6" then any rolls of 1 are misses so can be rerolled.

(No page references as I only own the digital codex and the page numbers are different.)

 Cheexsta wrote:
I'd say no, he cannot reroll the roll of 1 because it did not miss, unless he is on his own.

Gorechild's rule states that it hits on a 2+. The Betrayer rule states that on a To Hit roll of 1, he automatically hits a friendly model. The attacks have not "missed", so do not trigger Hatred (they "missed" their intended target, but as far as the rules are concerned, all of his attacks have hit).

Of course, if there are no friendly models within 6" then any rolls of 1 are misses so can be rerolled.

(No page references as I only own the digital codex and the page numbers are different.)

You skipped the do not discard, instead the automatically hit part.

You would simply reroll the misses before you would discard the roll.

 Cheexsta wrote:
I'd say no, he cannot reroll the roll of 1 because it did not miss, unless he is on his own.

Gorechild's rule states that it hits on a 2+. The Betrayer rule states that on a To Hit roll of 1, he automatically hits a friendly model. The attacks have not "missed", so do not trigger Hatred (they "missed" their intended target, but as far as the rules are concerned, all of his attacks have hit).

Of course, if there are no friendly models within 6" then any rolls of 1 are misses so can be rerolled.

(No page references as I only own the digital codex and the page numbers are different.)

Your first sentence contradicts the rest of your statement. Gorechild rule says: "Kharn's melee attacks always hit on 2+ (even if they would otherwise hit automatically)" so, if you roll a 1 what is it? it is certanly not a hit because it isn't a 2+, otherwise it would be worded Kharn's melee attacks always hit. This allows you to reroll due to hatred or any other rule, after you get the results of the roll you apply the betrayer.

If it says to discard the 1's or not I don't feel thats relavent to the situation. As long as anywhere in the rules it says those 1's hit something, anything, than they are hits. Clearly if he's alone they get rerolled.

 Goat wrote:
If it says to discard the 1's or not I don't feel thats relavent to the situation. As long as anywhere in the rules it says those 1's hit something, anything, than they are hits. Clearly if he's alone they get rerolled.

They do, after they get rerolled. You must first roll to hit, is you get a 1 it is a miss no matter how you see it. If it always hits on 2+ rolling a 1 isn't a hit. After determining which attacks hit, your pick up the ones and they become automatic hits to your side.

You hit on a 2+; it is an excluded middle fallacy to state that the roll of a 1 is a miss.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
You skipped the do not discard, instead the automatically hit part.

You would simply reroll the misses before you would discard the roll.

That's probably the best argument in favour of the reroll, IMHO. At the very least it's an issue that needs to be FAQed - and, as I always suggest in ambiguous rules situations, I think players using Kharn (which, incidentally, includes myself) should use the less favourable interpretation in the meantime.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Your first sentence contradicts the rest of your statement. Gorechild rule says: "Kharn's melee attacks always hit on 2+ (even if they would otherwise hit automatically)" so, if you roll a 1 what is it? it is certanly not a hit because it isn't a 2+, otherwise it would be worded Kharn's melee attacks always hit. This allows you to reroll due to hatred or any other rule, after you get the results of the roll you apply the betrayer.

But it is a hit, because the Betrayer rule says that it's an automatic hit.

So my question is .... after re-rolls/misses have been worked out what is Kharn hitting friendlies with because of Betrayer rule? I know that it can not be Gorechild.

What do you mean? Of course he's hitting them with Gorechild.

 Grey Templar wrote:
What do you mean? Of course he's hitting them with Gorechild.

Gorechild cannot hit automatically per its own rules.
"Kharn's melee attacks always hit on 2+ (even if they would otherwise hit automatically)"
that is word for word from the Codex

Isn't that Karn's rule not Gorechild's?(I honestly don't remember)

 Grey Templar wrote:
Isn't that Karn's rule not Gorechild's?(I honestly don't remember)

its under the Chaos Artefact - Gorechild.

I can't read.

Does everyone miss the part where it talks about "any unmodified rolls"?

The first roll of attacks are modified rolls because they have re-rolls because of hatred rule.
Any of the re rolls and rolls for attacks in any continuing phase of combat are unmodified rolls and thus the Betrayer rules applies.

40k-noob wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
What do you mean? Of course he's hitting them with Gorechild.

Gorechild cannot hit automatically per its own rules.
"Kharn's melee attacks always hit on 2+ (even if they would otherwise hit automatically)"
that is word for word from the Codex

That's actually kinda funny. Guess he's pistol whipping them

That's actually a hilarious bit of rules twisting there.

As we feel there are two very good sides to this, we've decided in our club that if Kharn is charging, the rerolls are allowed, if he is being charged, no rerolls on the 1s.

I know this isn't RAW, but its a good enough compromise for now.

As we feel there are two very good sides to this, we've decided in our club that if Kharn is charging, the rerolls are allowed, if he is being charged, no rerolls on the 1s.

I know this isn't RAW, but its a good enough compromise for now.

Really this probably is raw. Both the re-roll granted by hatred and the Betrayer rule "work" after the first roll to hit is made. Therefor if it's your turn you decide which effect happens first. On your turns you can choose to re-roll before bashing your own boys' heads in. when it's your opponents turn you get nothing at all since everything either hit as normal, or "hit" per the betrayer rule, i.e. no misses.

The bit about him needing a 2+ even if he would hit automatically is for when he's assaulting a vehicle with WS0.

When Kharn rolls a "1", he hits a friendly. Seems pretty basic to me.