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In a kill team mission where vehicles are allowed, but no flyers, no reserves.

FMC not being required to use reserves and not the same as flyers, should they be allowed for the sake of balance yes or no?


We all know that for Tyranids, MCs = Vehicles. So when looking at it as a fair balanced competition does it make sense to allow Nids to field a Harpy as it is the only viable MC/vehicle equivalent to the type of vehicles other armies can field within their FOC being

0 - 1 Elites
0 - 2 troops
0 - 1 fast attack

with a 200 pts roster limit

Or is the harpy too much/unfair?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
My arguement is that i agree FMC may be too powerful in a small 200 pt kill team. However if vehicles are allowed for other armies, considering that nids have NO vehicles whatsoever. How do you deal with a player brining a landspeeder with heavy flamer and typhoon missile launcher? its only about half his army points leaving plenty points to bring a troop unit to support it. And yet the landspeeder with that set up can obliterate other armies specially Orks and Nids who don't realy have an answer to a landspeeder's 48" range

Hive Guard can be easily killed in the open by typhoon missile launchers before ever getting into range. And are the only true viable way of dealing with vehicles with those limits.

Genestealers wont ever be able to catch up to a fast skimmer.

So how is bringing a Harpy really any different to bringing the aforementioned Land Speeder or an equivalent vehicle from another army?

I would agree based on what you are saying if vehicles are allowed then MC should be allowed.

I agree - if Vehicles are allowed, then MC's are allowed; however if flyers aren't the FMC's shouldn't be.

But again how is having a Harpy any different than taking a landspeeder?

The land speeder can do much more damage while having the same survivability within a 200 pts scenario.

FMCs aren't as broken as Flyers. Any hit will ground them

I'm looking at it in terms of fairness/balance. If you are going to allow fast skimmers in a 200 pt game, why not FMC, her harpy is the only FMC that is not HQ/Heavy Support in the game.

Not like you will see Fate Weaver show up.

landspeeder is cheaper and deadlier than Harpy. Some landspeeders costing just half the point cost of a harpy while bringing more firepower. I don't see how it's not fair to allow it yet fair to allow landspeeders and other such vehicles.

Do nids not get screwed enough with the rules as is that they can't be allowed to at least play to their strengths?

Now that you can galnce a vehicle to death, there are still some major difference One is that you cannot get locked in combat (I'm assuming this is not a walker) but can only ram (still very amazing). Monsstrous Creature I admit will rape pretty much anything it gets into combat with and is USUALLY more mobile

Of course you also need stronger weapons to destroy vehicles, meaning that all those mid strength now actually have a target. So really you are only giving your opponent something that they can shoot at by taking a monstrous creature and damage and not be insta killing hordes whoopie!

I would say that if you want to go and have survivability, then go with vehicles, if you want to go with offensive kickass, monsterous creatures.

Using my tactics, I want survivability, so I take vehicles over MC's any day.

Damn, gosh and bother, wrong thread... I mean, I only skimmed this thread... oops... Oh well, those are my opinions anyway.

Nothing to do here

Landspeeders and any fast skimmer really within a 200 pt game is worst than 1 Harpy.

Flying MCs are not FLYERS the rules aren't the same. FMC are far from impervious

Landspeeder w/Typhoon Missile Launcher; Heavy Flamer = 90 pts

Harpy w/no upgrades = 160 pts

* FMC can move a maximum of 24" +2D6 (RUN); Fast Skimmer can move a maximum of 30"
* FMC are HARD TO HIT requiring weapons to only fire snap shots at them.
* FMC can be grounded on any HIT. Even a tau markerlight hit can drop a FMC from the sky. 33% chance of happening, and suffers S9 hit with no saves allowed.

It takes 9 Bolter shots from a Space Marine to strip 1 hull point away from a Land Speeder.
It takes 9 Bolter shots from a Space Marine to cause 1 unsaved wound on a Gliding/Grounded Harpy

It takes 6 Bolter shots from a Space Marine to get 1 hit and force a Grounding Test.

In terms of mobility and survivability both are pretty similar, yet one costs 70 pts less.

Looking at the firepower they both bring.

Heavy Flamer + Typhoon Missile Launcher

vs

Barbed Strangler + Cluster Spines

It's quite clear which has superior weapons. With the TMS having better range and being just as deadly versus infantry while able to punch through armor/vehicles, and heavy flamer capable of demolishing hordes.

Taking all this into account how is the Harpy so broken? Where does it become OP in an army without vehicles where a landspeeder is labeled as not OP yet performs much better for a lower point cost.

If your tyranid list can't kill a land speeder you have bigger problems.

lol how do you kill a landspeeder in a 200 pt kill team game sir? you know aside from 'possibly' hive guard

First off, hive guard, played right, should wreck A speeder with no problems. 24"bubble, bs4, strength 8 and you don't get a jink save against it. Shouldn't be too hard to do.

Second "any fire will bring down a FMC"? No. first, you have to hit it with a 6, and even then they only take a grounded test once per volley of fire, not once per shot, and FMC stays in the air on a3+. Odds are in his favor that he stays airborne.

I would say if flyers aren't allowed, then neither are FMC's, but you could easily house rule it to say he can use him, he just can't fly.

It's kill team, there aer no 'volley' each marine fires as a separate unit. So first one to hit will cause a ground test.

I believe i said to give me an example that DOESN'T include hive guard, but since you did anyway...
"hive guard if played right"

then who's the idiot running the landspeeder?

"landspeeder if played right" with typhoon missile launcher will own hive guard.

Because 48" range > 24" range

30" movement > 6" +D6 movement

It's pretty simple to see the problem there is catching up to the landspeeder while avoiding being shot down by its missile launchers.

Not impossible yet clearly in the speeder's advantage at 200 pts of kill team.

On the other hand the same can be said about the Harpy. Equal level of annoyance you can bring it down on hits but first you have to get it within range. And to 'house rule' that it's no longer a FMC is slowed, a harpy without being FMC is just a super expensive gargoyle

Would you allow for the landspeeder to be house ruled as not a fast skimmer? Fair is Fair.

So, you are basically not looking for opinions, you are looking for people who share your opinion?

Face it, you are just trying to find justification to bring along a much too powerful unit to a game to imbalance it in your favor.

Those 48" missiles giving you a hard time? move behind some cover.

Killing a speeder is a breeze. AV10 and open-topped with 2 hull points makes it a glass cannon.

Your units all work seperately, right? Spread out your stealers, stay behind cover as much as possible, and surround the speeder. Once somebody gets close enough, charge it, and tear it up. 2 glances kills it. Not that difficult.

I think if there is a limit on AV value then there should also be a limit on MC Toughness value eg.

AV 10 11 = T5
AV 12 = T6
AV 13 14 = T6+

or there abouts.

I also feel FMC should be allowed as they do have that grounding rule which can be a bit of a burden

 nolzur wrote:
So, you are basically not looking for opinions, you are looking for people who share your opinion?

Face it, you are just trying to find justification to bring along a much too powerful unit to a game to imbalance it in your favor.

Those 48" missiles giving you a hard time? move behind some cover.

Killing a speeder is a breeze. AV10 and open-topped with 2 hull points makes it a glass cannon.

Your units all work seperately, right? Spread out your stealers, stay behind cover as much as possible, and surround the speeder. Once somebody gets close enough, charge it, and tear it up. 2 glances kills it. Not that difficult.

Do you actually play tyranids? lol

I highly doubt you'll find many tyranid players that will agree with you that within a 200 pt game it's 'easy' for genestealers to kill a land speeder. You know with the land speeder packing a heavy flamer...and being able to move around 30" a turn.

Yes landspeeder in a regular game is easy to kill, because you have other things in your army to apply pressure and distribute target priority.

I assume your idea of a tyranid kill team to battle this is 7 genestealers and 2 hive guard? 198 pts

vs

Codex Space Marines land speeder w/heavy flamer + tml and 5 man tactical squad w/combi-weapon 196 pts

with the marines upfront shooting anything that pops it's head out, and the landspeeder well outside hive guard range. I wud love to see how ur brilliant tactics come into play.

assume both players are competent. The advantage is clearly held by the player with the vehicle which is a fast skimmer. If you can't hit ur opponent's blind spots with a fast skimmer you need to reconsider the game ur playing. Landspeeder can completely ignore the genstealers, the hive guard are it's only threat and unless they are hiding behind a solid wall, the missiles will kill them.

Anyway i'm not saying it's not impossible, i'm saying it's unfair to allow the sort of advantage fast skimmer vehicles offer to armies while denying tyranids the equivalent of it which is a Harpy.

In a killt eam with a harppy all we can bring is Harpy + 3 ripper swarms. This is not an OP kill team against the same space marine list, the harpy can at best kill 1 space marine every 3 turns. It has a S6 large blast that does NOT ignore those 3+ saves.

Where as 1 failed grounding test and it's basically lights out for the Harpy. And it fails those 33% of the time, the minute the harpy drops the landspeeder can hit it with the flamer and missiles and kill it.

FMC are not as insane powerful as you seem to think they are. They compare very well to regular vehicles. They are most definetly not in the same level of "OMG" as vehicle flyers

FMC are downright ridiculous. Especially in this gameset.

You still need to roll a 6 to force a grounding test, one that is passed on a 3+

FMC's can Vector strike than shoot a seperate unit.

They do not compare to regular vehicles in the least.

Landspeeders are AV 10 IIRC what str are DEV guants again?
4 IIRC, essentially it's as easy if not easier to kill that than to down a FMC + Deal with it.

Saying a FMC isn't OP in this type of game is just wrong.

Did you see the actual math for it that i posted? Or are you just stating ur opinion without running the numbers?

Also are you taking into account that this FMC is a Harpy...not Fate Weaver.

How about you actually show some math to support your arguement like i did.

Devourer gaunts vs a land speeder? You have to be joking. What kind of idiot would bring his landspeeder within 18" range with a TML

Also devourer gaunts need 6s to glance. Correct me if im wrong but isn't it easier to HIT on 6s than to WOUND/Glance on 6s?

Tyranids hit 50% of the time, they first have to hit before they can even dream of wounding/glancing something. That requires 2 sets of rolls

Once again do the math and then speak on it. A harpy isn't OP it is T5, 4 wounds, 4+ save for 160 pts

Have you actually faced one in a game? Or better yet in a kill team game? Was it really that OP? Come on now

Hmm, never done a kill team, so I can't know any rules, but since things seem to be focused around a landspeeder vs a harpy...let me ask a question. Will you house rule the Tyranid player is allowed to use an Aegis Defense Line? If so, I'll grab 2 hive guard and my Quad gun or an icarus cannon, and gladly take the field against your forces. Forget the Harpy, just give me that. On the other hand, Harpy will lose, hands down. Just doing the math on forces. If your running that harpy, there is not much else you can run with it to even sides up, outside of termagants, so I would say that the Landspeeder is the deadlier opponent. The landspeeder will be using it's windshield wipers to remove the bug guts from the windshield.

I killed a land speeder in a 200p killteam with 2 boyz and a nob with big choppah...i dont see how it's soo hard to kill it.

phatonic wrote:
I killed a land speeder in a 200p killteam with 2 boyz and a nob with big choppah...i dont see how it's soo hard to kill it.

Why your opponent would let anything as slow as orks get close enough to his landspeeder is beyond me. Not everyone is a competent tactician i suppose.

But yes if you can get within range the landspeeder is easy enough to bring down, the problem is that it is deadlier than the harpy, and has weapons and mobility that easily allow it to avoid enemies while dealing heavy damage.

On the other hand the harpy costs twice as much, it's weapons are no where near as effective and the only thing it has going for it is the ability to fly and be hard to hit as a defensive measure which is VERY balanced by having to take grounding tests on a hit. Not on a wound...on a HIT.

I see the poll results are reflecting a more even divide on this issue now. I feel as if the votes against are either overstimating the power of a FMC like the Harpy, or understimating the power of a landspeeder in a 200 pts kill team. If the Harpy was 60 pts cheaper then i could agree to playing it in Glide mode only.

But really to allow one and not the other is bending the rules in the favor of everyone but nids who are the only army without vehicles.

This was a free for all 200p killteam with six players our shootas got str 4 so we can glance at sixes, big shoota can at 5's he had a heavy flamer on it so he moved up and tought he would burn enough orks well... ended only killing one as he tossed so many 1's and 2's thus the boyz charged him the next round

lol then you killed it on his overconfidence, bad rolling and the fact that it was a free for all game with other players to assist lol

Quite different from what would happen in a 1 on 1
He shouldv'e brought a TML with that heavy flamer, he would've fared better

You keep saying that you are a competent tactician. Prove it by not being a little bitch and trying to bring something that will swing the game in your favor and just killing the speeder. Or bring the harpy and let him bring a storm raven.

 Akaiyou wrote:

He shouldv'e brought a TML with that heavy flamer, he would've fared better

Then he would not have enough points to spend on troops or other infantry units to take the objectives to WIN the game.

ThisKidsTheBest wrote:You keep saying that you are a competent tactician. Prove it by not being a little bitch and trying to bring something that will swing the game in your favor and just killing the speeder. Or bring the harpy and let him bring a storm raven.

- When exactly did i say that I specifically was a competent tactician? Quote me please.

Oh 'bring something what will swing the game in your favor' you mean in the same sense that bringing vehicles to a kill team mission where they werent allowed swings the game in the favor of certain armies? I TOTALLY AGREE!

Lol a harpy is the equivalent of a storm raven? You need to play 40k more sir

phatonic wrote:

 Akaiyou wrote:

He shouldv'e brought a TML with that heavy flamer, he would've fared better

Then he would not have enough points to spend on troops or other infantry units to take the objectives to WIN the game.

What are you talking about? At most this landspeeder will cost 90 pts leaving plenty points for a space marine unit. You mean to tell me it's not a solid unit? When by comparison anyone bringing a harpy can at most bring 3 ripper swarms and THAT has a 'great' chacne of winning the game but the marines with landspeeder dont ? GTFO....

just use a horde of str 4 stuff.
you'll eventually kill it...maybe

Sounds like someone needs a chillpill, meeting up against wraiths with Inv 3+ , paladins , lootas, nobz, allot of boyz, Chaos spacemarines you wont survive for long and the land speeder itself is not avaible to get into a building wich was the main objective for this killteam.
Also we were not allowed any Heavy suppourt choises^^

wraiths can be instant killed by missile launchers easier than being killed by bolters.

Same with paladins and nobs. Missile launcher can just instant kill them

Lootas and a lot of boyz also drop easier from frag missiles than bolters

chaos space marines also die from missiles

see a theme here? in 40k a missile launcher is sort of like a jack knife. Works on all targets effectively.

Sure your friend didnt bring it on his speeder but that doesn't mean that speeders aren't deadly in kill teams.

After all a naked marine is not as deadly as a marine with flamer/meltagun/plasmagun is it?

So that 1 kill team game you mention is an example of what not to do, not an example of the standard tactics.

Once more the debate is simply centered in the question of 'should harpies be allowed for tyranids if vehicles are allowed for other races'

A harpy centered kill team is not nearly as OP as you imagine it to be. Where as a kill team with a tooled up speeder is quite deadly in offense and defense