Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Last night I had a game of Necrons vs Orks. I had two Nobs with Kombi-Scorchas be charged by a Catacomb Command Barge (w/ embarked Overlord) and then two Wraiths. Now, first charging a unit with something that doesn't care about the Overwatch fire (to draw out the Overwatch) is a fairly common tactic in our group. However, Chariots are kind of a weird case given how they work (see below). So my question is, could I have fired my Overwatch shots at the Wraiths instead of the Command Barge?

Relevant info:

1) A unit may only fire one Overwatch shot per turn.
2) A unit may not fire Overwatch if it is locked in combat.
3) A Chariot, and it's embarked rider, are never considered to be locked in combat.

We eventually rolled off on it (I didn't win the roll-off), but I'd like to know how others would play it.

Yes. You could have. You could have fired at both units actually.

Remember that the unit inside IS NOT being charged, the transport is.

The rules for Transport allow the embarked unit to fire Overwatch.

The rules for Overwatch say that the unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn but in the case of Transports, the unit embarked is not being charged so that restriction does not apply to them.

40k-noob wrote:
Yes. You could have. You could have fired at both units actually.

Remember that the unit inside IS NOT being charged, the transport is.

The rules for Transport allow the embarked unit to fire Overwatch.

The rules for Overwatch say that the unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn but in the case of Transports, the unit embarked is not being charged so that restriction does not apply to them.

You're looking at it backwards, the necrons charged the orks and he was the ork player. Though I'll admit, the post and title is confusing.

To the OP, you can overwatch any unit that charges you, you are not considered locked in combat until the start of the fight sub-phase and *all* charges must be declared in the charge sub-phase prior to the fight sub-phase, meaning that your opponent declares all his charges, you resolve your overwatch with any unit against a unit charging them, then he rolls distance for charges.

 Kevin949 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Yes. You could have. You could have fired at both units actually.

Remember that the unit inside IS NOT being charged, the transport is.

The rules for Transport allow the embarked unit to fire Overwatch.

The rules for Overwatch say that the unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn but in the case of Transports, the unit embarked is not being charged so that restriction does not apply to them.

You're looking at it backwards, the necrons charged the orks and he was the ork player. Though I'll admit, the post and title is confusing.

To the OP, you can overwatch any unit that charges you, you are not considered locked in combat until the start of the fight sub-phase and *all* charges must be declared in the charge sub-phase prior to the fight sub-phase, meaning that your opponent declares all his charges, you resolve your overwatch with any unit against a unit charging them, then he rolls distance for charges.

Oops my bad.

 Kevin949 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Yes. You could have. You could have fired at both units actually.

Remember that the unit inside IS NOT being charged, the transport is.

The rules for Transport allow the embarked unit to fire Overwatch.

The rules for Overwatch say that the unit being charged may only fire Overwatch once per turn but in the case of Transports, the unit embarked is not being charged so that restriction does not apply to them.

You're looking at it backwards, the necrons charged the orks and he was the ork player. Though I'll admit, the post and title is confusing.

To the OP, you can overwatch any unit that charges you, you are not considered locked in combat until the start of the fight sub-phase and *all* charges must be declared in the charge sub-phase prior to the fight sub-phase, meaning that your opponent declares all his charges, you resolve your overwatch with any unit against a unit charging them, then he rolls distance for charges.

You declare one charge, resolve overwatch, roll distance and then declare another; you don't declare them all at the same time.

You also cannot overwatch any unit that charges you; since a squad is only allowed to overwatch once per turn, units that declare charges after the target unit has performed an overwatch cannot be overwatched themselves.

yeah you only get one overwatch per turn. You can lock the unit up in combat and then freely charge in with a 2nd unit w/o fear of overwatch.

the BRB is clear the way assaults work as well, that you do them one by one. Ie. declare charges with boys, do overwatch, roll range, move boyz if they can, pick squad b (nobs) declare charge, etc...

The only thing you are not allowed to do before you move on to the next charge to declare is actually fight a combat/take swings because it could tip the tide of the battle and make you realize you don't need unit b or c to be in a particular fight. (from my understanding)


so you could of just let the lord charge you, ignored it then skorched the wraiths as you were not locked in combat (because lord was on a chariot)


I've never actually had a lord on a CCB charge anything that could hurt his barge in overwatch, lol. Just a thought.

Sorry, you're right, but you're still not locked in combat until the start of the fight sub-phase, so you can overwatch any unit that declares a charge (up to your allowed maximum of attempts).

 Kevin949 wrote:
Sorry, you're right, but you're still not locked in combat until the start of the fight sub-phase, so you can overwatch any unit that declares a charge (up to your allowed maximum of attempts).

I'm going to say this now. This is debatable and has no bearing on the current topic (not criticizing you kevin, as I happen to agree with you). Let's just focus on the topic at hand, and if necessary we can start another thread on whether or not you can fire Overwatch after having already been charged by one unit.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Sorry, you're right, but you're still not locked in combat until the start of the fight sub-phase, so you can overwatch any unit that declares a charge (up to your allowed maximum of attempts).

I'm going to say this now. This is debatable and has no bearing on the current topic (not criticizing you kevin, as I happen to agree with you). Let's just focus on the topic at hand, and if necessary we can start another thread on whether or not you can fire Overwatch after having already been charged by one unit.

Understandable, but I do feel it has bearing to the topic at hand.

Either way, in the "specific" situation noted in the OP, you'd be able to fire overwatch at either since you're never locked in combat with a vehicle (regardless to the aforementioned debatable topic).

 Kevin949 wrote:
1. To the OP, you can overwatch any unit that charges you,

2. you are not considered locked in combat until the start of the fight sub-phase and

3. *all* charges must be declared in the charge sub-phase prior to the fight sub-phase, meaning that your opponent declares all his charges, you resolve your overwatch with any unit against a unit charging them, then he rolls distance for charges.

I think all three of these points are wrong.

1. Page 21, OVERWATCH RESTRICTIONS: '[ ] units that are locked in close combat cannot fire overwatch-'

If the unit being charged is already in base contact from previous charges, then it is locked in combat, and cannot perform overwatch.

2. Page 23, WHO CAN FIGHT? 'Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.'

It reads that a unit is locked in combat as soon as another model is in base contact with one of it's models, which occurs during the Charge move (if successful). I cannot find anywhere in the Rulebook or the FAQs that state that a unit is not locked in combat until the start of the sub-fight phase.

3. Page 22, DECLARE NEXT CHARGE: 'Once all of the models in a charging unit have been moved, the player can choose another unit and declare another charge if he wishes.'

Once again, it clearly states that subsequent charges are declared only AFTER the previous charge is Declared, Overwatched, Roll Charge Range, and Charge Move.

To the OP: if the Nobz were charged by the Chariot first, they can never not be locked in combat with it. So, if they did not fire overwatch against the Chariot, they will be allowed to fire overwatch against the Wraiths.

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
1. To the OP, you can overwatch any unit that charges you,

2. you are not considered locked in combat until the start of the fight sub-phase and

3. *all* charges must be declared in the charge sub-phase prior to the fight sub-phase, meaning that your opponent declares all his charges, you resolve your overwatch with any unit against a unit charging them, then he rolls distance for charges.

I think all three of these points are wrong.

1. Page 21, OVERWATCH RESTRICTIONS: '[ ] units that are locked in close combat cannot fire overwatch-'

If the unit being charged is already in base contact from previous charges, then it is locked in combat, and cannot perform overwatch.

2. Page 23, WHO CAN FIGHT? 'Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.'

It reads that a unit is locked in combat as soon as another model is in base contact with one of it's models, which occurs during the Charge move (if successful). I cannot find anywhere in the Rulebook or the FAQs that state that a unit is not locked in combat until the start of the sub-fight phase.

3. Page 22, DECLARE NEXT CHARGE: 'Once all of the models in a charging unit have been moved, the player can choose another unit and declare another charge if he wishes.'

Once again, it clearly states that subsequent charges are declared only AFTER the previous charge is Declared, Overwatched, Roll Charge Range, and Charge Move.

To the OP: if the Nobz were charged by the Chariot first, they can never not be locked in combat with it. So, if they did not fire overwatch against the Chariot, they will be allowed to fire overwatch against the Wraiths.

To number 3 - I already conceded I was wrong on that.

To point number 2 - that is in the fight sub-phase section, no charge sub-phase section. Further on in that rule you quoted (which you neglected to point out) is that it details that you work out determining who is locked at the start of each initiative step. As happyjew pointed out, this is (apparently) still a debated topic and not one to be pulled up in here.

To number 1 - That's great, you stated a phrase from the rulebook. See my previous two counter-points.

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
Last night I had a game of Necrons vs Orks. I had two Nobs with Kombi-Scorchas be charged by a Catacomb Command Barge (w/ embarked Overlord) and then two Wraiths. Now, first charging a unit with something that doesn't care about the Overwatch fire (to draw out the Overwatch) is a fairly common tactic in our group. However, Chariots are kind of a weird case given how they work (see below). So my question is, could I have fired my Overwatch shots at the Wraiths instead of the Command Barge?

Relevant info:

1) A unit may only fire one Overwatch shot per turn.
2) A unit may not fire Overwatch if it is locked in combat.
3) A Chariot, and it's embarked rider, are never considered to be locked in combat.

We eventually rolled off on it (I didn't win the roll-off), but I'd like to know how others would play it.

You have listed the relevant points for this discussion. The Chariot will not lock a unit in combat as it is a vehicle and explicitly states so, so therefore you can reserve your overwatch for another unit. If the Wraiths had charged first, then you would have been locked and unable to fire overwatch on the Chariot, should you have wanted to.

Fragile wrote:

PrinceOfMadness wrote:
Last night I had a game of Necrons vs Orks. I had two Nobs with Kombi-Scorchas be charged by a Catacomb Command Barge (w/ embarked Overlord) and then two Wraiths. Now, first charging a unit with something that doesn't care about the Overwatch fire (to draw out the Overwatch) is a fairly common tactic in our group. However, Chariots are kind of a weird case given how they work (see below). So my question is, could I have fired my Overwatch shots at the Wraiths instead of the Command Barge?

Relevant info:

1) A unit may only fire one Overwatch shot per turn.
2) A unit may not fire Overwatch if it is locked in combat.
3) A Chariot, and it's embarked rider, are never considered to be locked in combat.

We eventually rolled off on it (I didn't win the roll-off), but I'd like to know how others would play it.

You have listed the relevant points for this discussion. The Chariot will not lock a unit in combat as it is a vehicle and explicitly states so, so therefore you can reserve your overwatch for another unit. If the Wraiths had charged first, then you would have been locked and unable to fire overwatch on the Chariot, should you have wanted to.

Debatable, as pointed out.
When are you locked in combat?
The fight sub-phase is the first given example, and that is after all charges have been made.


As stated multiple times though, the chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock a unit in CC.

Debated, yes. We have a huge thread on it. However, current RAW is in favor of locking at the end of the charge, whether this is intended or RAI, who knows. Until GW FAQs it, it will be argued by both sides.

But the vehicle in this scenario makes it moot.

If anyone wants a look see,

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/493366.page

There's another discussion linked in there too.