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2012/12/11 06:54:59
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Shunting Grey Knight Interceptor
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Let's say a model that can resurrect, such as Celestine or Thawn, mishaps on a deep strike and gets a destroyed result. Do they still put down their markers and try to resurrect?
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Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
Justicar Thawn: Thanks GFMGL! |
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2012/12/11 07:29:41
Subject: Re:Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader
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My initial assumption would be no, as they never actually made it into play. Therefore their special rules wouldn't resurrect them.
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2012/12/11 12:12:52
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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No. it never came into play in the 1st place.
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2012/12/11 16:26:03
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Confessor Of Sins
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You do place 'one model from the unit anywhere on the table,..' (pg. 36).
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 Cratfworld Alaitoc (Gallery)
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2012/12/11 16:28:29
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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As long as Celestine or Thawn was the one model that you placed before rolling the deep strike dice, yes.
If you placed another model from the unit, then no.
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2012/12/11 16:39:23
Subject: Re:Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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The first "model" placed is by necessity nothing more than a marker until after DS scatter has been resolved. To play otherwise breaks the game.
Assuming the first model is more than a marker to represent the unit and that scatter is actual movement:
The first Model is placed in dangerous or difficult (but not impassible) terrain. It must immediately (before rolling for scatter) take a dangerous terrain test. Let's assume it is removed as a casualty. There is no longer a model to scatter (or not, if a hit is rolled), and no model to place the rest of the unit around. What happens now?
The first model is placed next to dangerous terrain, and then scatters 12" to the other side. If the scatter is movement, the model must take a dangerous terrain test. Let's assume it is removed as a casualty. There is no longer a model to place the rest of the unit around. What happens now?
In both of these examples the initial placement is legal in any circumstance, but there are a host of additional rules that would have to be written to cover the "more than a marker", and "scatter is actual movement" positions.
If the initial model is simply a marker until scatter is resolved, then the deepstrike rules work fine as written with no house-ruling needed. This also means that the initial placement can be on/in impassible terrain and enemy units, as it does not interact with the game at all until after the scatter roll.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2012/12/11 17:14:19
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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+1 to lordhat. That model placed on the table acts as a marker and nothing else
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2012/12/11 17:23:35
Subject: Re:Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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 Lordhat wrote:The first "model" placed is by necessity nothing more than a marker until after DS scatter has been resolved. To play otherwise breaks the game.
Incorrect, every instance of the DS rules refers to it as a model and not a marker.
Assuming the first model is more than a marker to represent the unit and that scatter is actual movement:
The rules assume that it is movement. Emphasis below is mine.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep
striking units may not move any further, other than to
disembark from a deep striking Transport vehicle if they
are in one."
The first Model is placed in dangerous or difficult (but not impassible) terrain. It must immediately (before rolling for scatter) take a dangerous terrain test. Let's assume it is removed as a casualty. There is no longer a model to scatter (or not, if a hit is rolled), and no model to place the rest of the unit around. What happens now?
Normally it would, except there is an exception in the DS movement rules that say that all D/Dangerous are taken at the end after the other models are placed.
The first model is placed next to dangerous terrain, and then scatters 12" to the other side. If the scatter is movement, the model must take a dangerous terrain test. Let's assume it is removed as a casualty. There is no longer a model to place the rest of the unit around. What happens now?
Covered by the exception in the DS rules.
If the initial model is simply a marker until scatter is resolved, then the deepstrike rules work fine as written with no house-ruling needed. This also means that the initial placement can be on/in impassible terrain and enemy units, as it does not interact with the game at all until after the scatter roll.
There are actually no rules supporting placement of a model on impassible terrain and enemy units. No exception is given in the DS rules to the 1" movement rule.
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2012/12/11 18:10:12
Subject: Re:Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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 pretre wrote: Lordhat wrote:The first "model" placed is by necessity nothing more than a marker until after DS scatter has been resolved. To play otherwise breaks the game.
Incorrect, every instance of the DS rules refers to it as a model and not a marker.
Assuming the first model is more than a marker to represent the unit and that scatter is actual movement:
The rules assume that it is movement. Emphasis below is mine.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep
striking units may not move any further, other than to
disembark from a deep striking Transport vehicle if they
are in one."
Deepstriking is movement, scatter is not.
The first Model is placed in dangerous or difficult (but not impassible) terrain. It must immediately (before rolling for scatter) take a dangerous terrain test. Let's assume it is removed as a casualty. There is no longer a model to scatter (or not, if a hit is rolled), and no model to place the rest of the unit around. What happens now?
Normally it would, except there is an exception in the DS movement rules that say that all D/Dangerous are taken at the end after the other models are placed.
I found no rules specifying this. page please?
The first model is placed next to dangerous terrain, and then scatters 12" to the other side. If the scatter is movement, the model must take a dangerous terrain test. Let's assume it is removed as a casualty. There is no longer a model to place the rest of the unit around. What happens now?
Covered by the exception in the DS rules.
What exception?
If the initial model is simply a marker until scatter is resolved, then the deepstrike rules work fine as written with no house-ruling needed. This also means that the initial placement can be on/in impassible terrain and enemy units, as it does not interact with the game at all until after the scatter roll.
There are actually no rules supporting placement of a model on impassible terrain and enemy units. No exception is given in the DS rules to the 1" movement rule.
No there is not, there are actually rules reinforcing it (mishap). However I cannot find support for any of your statements above, especially the implication that DT tests are taken at the end of scatter. Provide me rule quotes and I may change my mind.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2012/12/11 18:12:45
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the
table,in the position where you would like it to arrive,
and roll for scatter to determine the model's final
position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep
Strike,do not change its facing - it must continue to face
the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit's remaining models are arranged around
the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with
the first model in a circle around it. When the first circle
is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed
with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle
must include as many models as will fit.
• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult
terrain as dangerous terrain.
There you go. First place model. Second roll scatter. Next place other models around it. Any models placed this way roll difficult as dangerous.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If placing that first model wasn't an actual model, then you would never actually count that model as being on the table if you rolled a hit. Since it doesn't say to pick it up and replace it with a model or to now count it as a real model.
It says place the model, roll scatter, then place the rest.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/11 18:14:24
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2012/12/11 18:22:00
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Shunting Grey Knight Interceptor
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In that case, where would the markers be placed? The final position where the mishap occurred?
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Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
Justicar Thawn: Thanks GFMGL! |
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2012/12/11 18:26:00
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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No, the original place. The mishap rules say that if you would have to place a model in impassable, etc, then you roll on the table. Once you roll the destroyed result, you would put the Celestine marker next to where the model is still sitting on the table (since you never moved it, just measured where it would have to go).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Appropriate quotes:
"First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the
table,in the position where you would like it to arrive,
and roll for scatter to determine the model's final
position."
"If any of the
models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed,because
at least one model would land partially or fully off the table,
in impassableterrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of
or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong.
The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap
table and apply the results."
"1 Terrible accident! Teleporting units are lost
in the Warp, deep striking Jump units are shot
down, or some other suitably dramatic event
occurs. The entire unit is destroyed!"
So place model, roll scatter dice, determine that model cannot be deployed legally, roll mishap table, unit is destroyed, place marker for Celestine/Thawn.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/11 18:27:32
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2012/12/11 18:38:41
Subject: Re:Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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I'll give you the "Model is not a marker" point, though I still contest that it cannot interact with the game until after scatter. However, I'm not seeing any grounds for considering scatter as actual movement.
1. There is absolutely no timing given for when models take DT tests during the DS process. The fact that it is the last bullet point doesn't mean anything, the rule simply informs us that difficult terrain is dangerous in this situation and leaves us to apply the relevant rules ourselves. A quick read of the Dangerous Terrain rules on pg. 90 informs us that "...each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." If Scatter is movement, then the situation in my original post in this thread applies.
2. Besides the Difficult/Dangerous terrain considerations, if scatter itself were movement, there would never be a mishap due to the "within 1" of an enemy" criteria as models are not allowed to move there (by your own admission there is no exception to this rule); One would have to stop the scatter short (just like the SR for Drop Pods). Why is there a rule for a situation that could never occur?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/11 18:40:06
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2012/12/11 18:40:44
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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"First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the
table,in the position where you would like it to arrive, ..."
This sentence means the model hasn't arrived yet.
"If any of the
models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed,because ..."
This sentence means the unit hasn't deployed yet.
Both mean the model isn't in play.
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2012/12/11 18:45:41
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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1) Fair enough. I'm not going to argue timing on that one. Technically, I believe you would roll DT when you put it down on the table for the first one and then the rest when you do the same after final placement, but I don't believe that is the intention.
2) Except there is an exception for how deep strike movement works. It says place, roll scatter and then measure. It gives you specific movement rules which override the normal movement rules. Automatically Appended Next Post: copper.talos wrote:"First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the
table,in the position where you would like it to arrive, ..."
This sentence means the model hasn't arrived yet.
Except the model is on the table.
"If any of the
models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed,because ..."
This sentence means the unit hasn't deployed yet.
Both mean the model isn't in play.
No, it means that any of the unit was not deployed.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/12/11 18:46:48
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2012/12/11 19:01:18
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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pretre wrote:1) Fair enough. I'm not going to argue timing on that one. Technically, I believe you would roll DT when you put it down on the table for the first one and then the rest when you do the same after final placement, but I don't believe that is the intention.
Ok we have aligned our views a bit more ( I love it when this is the result of a debate  ). I also agree that isn't the intention. What happens when, after rolling for DT for the first model, it becomes a casualty? If we don't treat the model as having officially "arrived" until after scatter is resolved, this situation never occurs (and it automatically removes the movement issues as well), and we don't have to fabricate any rules to resolve the deepstrike.
As to the OP, I am undecided on whether or not a destroyed result would place a "resurrection" marker or not. IMO it hinges on whether a model is officially 'on the table' before or after the entire DS process is resolved. I.E. does it officially arrive before or after the mishap?
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2012/12/11 19:07:56
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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I think the issue is that you place the model first (not movement). Then you move the model using the scatter dice and deep strike rules. You then move the model to its new location (potentially rolling dangerous terrain) and then surround it with other models. You then remove any casualties.
I am not finding the dangerous terrain bit where it says they are removed immediately (this was definitely in 5th). It just says that model suffers a wound. So you do all the movement, pool all the wounds, allocate them (done for you by the DT rule) and then remove casualties.
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2012/12/11 19:26:33
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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pretre wrote:I think the issue is that you place the model first (not movement). Then you move the model using the scatter dice and deep strike rules. You then move the model to its new location (potentially rolling dangerous terrain) and then surround it with other models. You then remove any casualties.
I am not finding the dangerous terrain bit where it says they are removed immediately (this was definitely in 5th). It just says that model suffers a wound. So you do all the movement, pool all the wounds, allocate them (done for you by the DT rule) and then remove casualties.
LOL this is like a Final Fantasy quest... Start here, then go here, then go here, then go here and get your reward.
First, I can find no definition of a model "Suffering" a wound, however I think we can agree that this is fundamentally the same as having been allocated a wound, yes? If so, then according to pg. 15, whenever a model is allocated an unsaved wound it's characteristic is reduced by one. If it has zero wounds left it is immediately removed as a casualty. Given there are no rules instructing us to wait, I don't think that we should in this circumstance. Also I believe this is the consensus reached for charging through dangerous terrain as well; Casualties could cause a failed charge even though the distance rolled was initially high enough.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2012/12/11 19:41:12
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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Hmm. I'll have to let the dangerous terrain as part of the scatter go then.
I still believe that the model is placed on the board and if removed as a casualty (destroyed) places a marker, however.
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2012/12/11 19:43:05
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Dakka Veteran
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Text in orange is direct quotation from rulebook. Bold/underline/italics mine.
pretre wrote:So you do all the movement, pool all the wounds, allocate them (done for you by the DT rule) and then remove casualties.
This is wrong on pretty much all counts.
1) You don't do "all" movement first. DT test is done immediately page 90: each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain.
2) Wounds caused by failed DT tests are not allocated in any way. Failed DT test causes model to suffer a Wound, which is very much different from having a Wound allocated to a model. Allocated wounds could be LOS!'d away from characters, for example.
3) You remove the model as a casualty the moment it has suffered enough unsaved Wounds, as per page 2: If at any point,a model's Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.
So the actual rules are pretty much reverse of what you said:
You do movement only until first model in the unit meets criteria for making DT test. Then you pause, roll DT, if you fail that specific model suffers a Wound and if it fails it's save, that model is now removed as a casualty. Only then you go back to actually moving rest of the models.
Obviously doing it this way slows the game down, and in normal cases it doesn't matter if you do DT tests at the end of the movement. But that is not what the actual rules say.
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2012/12/11 19:44:01
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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pretre wrote:Hmm. I'll have to let the dangerous terrain as part of the scatter go then.
I still believe that the model is placed on the board and if removed as a casualty (destroyed) places a marker, however.
After debating this all with you I think I agree, though I wouldn't be surprised at an FAQ stating the opposite.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2012/12/11 19:52:23
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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@luide: That was what I was looking for, thanks!
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2012/12/11 19:55:26
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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@pretre: So how do we stand on our debate?
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2012/12/11 19:58:00
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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Oh, I think that the dangerous terrain bit is ambiguous and I concede not knowing how that works, although I think that the immediate interpretation that you put forward is probably best and breaks the DS rules, but that a model is placed on the table.
So if that model is Celestine or Thawn and a mishap (destroyed) is rolled, you place their marker.
If they scatter and die to dangerous terrain, that's even easier from their perspective but harder from the perspective of what happens to the DS.
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2012/12/11 21:49:26
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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If you are contending a deepstrike marker is really "there" then certain mishaps can never occur - you could not end up within 1" of an enemy model, for example
It is a marker, and nothing more; it is where you want it to be, ergo it is not yet there. That is after scatter only
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2012/12/11 22:40:26
Subject: Resurrecting Deepstrikers
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Badass "Sister Sin"
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We covered that, nos. 
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