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Question pretty much says it all, was discussing this the other day with friends and I said I would, I could always use other companies miniatures to play the games with. I was most surprised to find out that most of my friends wouldn't even contemplate it if the company did not have minis ready to go with the game.

Was interested in what others thought.

What kind of game?

D&D? Sure, I have tons of Reaper Fantasy Miniatures.

Star Wars RPG? Again, sure. I have plenty of WotC's miniatures.

A table-top war game, similar in scope to WarmaHordes or 40k? No, that's the whole point of a miniature wargame. To have miniatures...

I would consider buying rules for a miniatures wargame as long as there were decent minis to be found for the game. I'd love some rules to make use of my Reaper Chronoscope figures.

I would say that the majority of rules are writen by those who have no miniatures company. The GW model of having rules and miniatures from the same house is very new, and unusual, typically companies did one or the other.

And would I buy them? yes of course, as my shelf of rules will attest.

I would buy rules for an RPG-like skirmish game, but not for something like WHFB for example.

Yes.

Have done so in the past, will do so in the future. For skirmish/small unit level. Mass battle rules with no miniatures would only be considered IF I already had suitable "armies".

I bought Tomorrow's War when they HAD no dedicated miniature line (and now that they do, it's in pesky 15mm, so AFAIC, it still hasn't got one).

It was a good read, and allowed me to use ANY company's models in whatever scale I choose (can go from 6mm-32mm easily) and the fact they had no 'dedicated' line was not a deterrent - if anything, it was one of the things that encouraged me to get it.

Yes. I like the idea that the rules writers are not tempted to revise rules in order to sell new figures.
When D&D started up it had no official figure line, which inspired creative solutions.

yeah, I did with songs of blades and heroes

An example for this would be a Mordheim-esque game. GW has pretty much abandoned that, but there is still model support for it using WFB models.

So yes, if a company made a skirmish game using models I already own or have access to, and I liked the setting of the game, then I'd buy it.

Luckily for Mordheims sake there is a rather large player base(mostly in Europe) who maintain updated rules sets that are available online for free. I've got about 500 different PDF's for Mordheim, a solid 90% of which are fan made.

Assuming it was a game that I was interested in playing, and suitable miniatures were available elsewhere, sure.


The trick is either having a setting that is good enough to explain people using assorted miniatures in a way that is new and interesting, and/or having rules that are good enough to make the game one that people want to play regardless of the setting or the miniatures being a little mismatched.

Of course I would. I do it all the time. The publishers of two of my favorite rule sets, The Sword and the Flame and GASLIGHT, do not produce any figures. I buy figures from a multiude of sources. There are a lot of nice figures out there and nice rule sets.

This is pretty much the norm for historical gaming (FoW aside), so yes I've done it many times.

If the rules were good then sure thing. If I could get minis for the ruleset from another company, and an opponent to play, even better.

 LavuranGuard wrote:
This is pretty much the norm for historical gaming (FoW aside), so yes I've done it many times.

Exaaaaactly. Case in point, I'm ordering Iron Ivan Games' 'This Very Ground' ruleset, and then using Old Glory Miniatures' 15mm FiW line as the minis. Hell, half the fun is figuring out what scale I want to use and whose miniature's I'll buy.

No.

Absolutely.

The "Song of Blades and Heroes" series of rulebooks, "Tomorrow's War", and "Gruntz 15mm" come to mind immediately. Or quite a lot of others from WargameVault.com, actually

Tomorrow's War is even stocked at Barnes and Noble.

Assuming two conditions are met:

1) People actually play your game. Let's be realistic here, players for random rule sets with no models are much rarer than players for games like 40k/warmachine/etc, and I'm not going to buy a book that's just going to sit on my shelf collecting dust.

2) Your rules have a clear design concept and offer a compelling reason to use them instead of the rules that were supposed to go with the miniatures I'd be using. IOW, if you write alternate rules for my 40k models you'd better do a good job of telling me why your rules are much more enjoyable than 40k, or I'll just play 40k.

3) Your production quality is acceptable. If you want me to buy a few sheets of paper stapled together with some mspaint graphics, forget it. If I'm buying something purely for the rules I expect to see professional-quality publishing work.

As others have said, this has often been the rule rather than the exception when discussing historical miniatures.

Tomorrow's War is also a great ruleset that has been designed with that specifically in mind - the strength of doing it being that you're not tying yourself down to one line of miniatures and the game should endure in some form even as old miniature lines disappear and new ones come to the market.

Yes. I purchased the Super System rules, solid rule system and a fraction of the cost of the more broken Pulp City.

From a hobby standpoint it gives the opportunity to model your own named characters, rather than being shoehorned into buying an ugly model to comply with wysiwyg.

Well, I'm glad to see I'm not alone then.

Honestly I thought that wargames in general had more imagination than to require a range of models before they would play a game, maybe I just have unimaginative friends

 kronk wrote:

A table-top war game, similar in scope to WarmaHordes or 40k? No, that's the whole point of a miniature wargame. To have miniatures...

Doesn't mean the game publisher also needs to make the miniatures. Only a very small percentage of games require specific figures, or are made by companies which also make the figures. Of all the rulesets I've bought, only 40K really requires GW figures. Some companies also make figures but they aren't really required to play the game (GW, Westwind, Warlord Games, Gripping Beast).

So most of the rules I have aren't tied to figures, and the ownership of a games line is irrelevant to my purchasing. In fact I'd say it'd be better to get rules from a dedicated rules/books company, as then the work is going into making the rules good and balanced (Osprey), and not as an excuse to boost sales in the miniatures line (GW).

Dungeons and dragons. Thats all i should have to say

And anyway i dont have to- http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/

Maybe.

If the game looks like something I'd be interested in and would go with my minis, sure. I'd love to see a really solid substitute for the absolutely crummy WFB rules that I could try and sell people on.

If not, then no.

 Vulcan wrote:
I'd love to see a really solid substitute for the absolutely crummy WFB rules that I could try and sell people on.

How about Kings of War? It's Mantics take on it, much more streamlined and is free I believe (or you can buy a hardback)

Stranger83 wrote:
Question pretty much says it all, was discussing this the other day with friends and I said I would, I could always use other companies miniatures to play the games with. I was most surprised to find out that most of my friends wouldn't even contemplate it if the company did not have minis ready to go with the game.

Was interested in what others thought.

Considering that I have bought Tomorrow's War, Force on Force and Check Your 6: Jet Age, my answer has to be a resounding yes!

I would buy rules for games with no models provided they work to the same scale as other games I play as the models can be transferred/proxied.

For example, Inquisitor, (I know there are models, just not enough and what there is is too large a scale for my terrain.)

We pay it at 28mm at my local by using our existing 40k miniatures or we even create some by conversion or by using other 28mm gaming system models.

I think this could transfer to anything really, although I can understand why some people would be hesitant also.

Before I moved to Atlanta, there was a group of us who played a modern skirmish level wargame that had rules but the company produced no miniatures. There were several other small companies that made the correct scale miniatures that would fit. It was interesting playing, say, US Marines vs Taliban resistance fighters, for example. The game mechanics were pretty good, and the rules were tight. There was a pretty good group going.

We also played a 28mm WWII game; I still have an entire platoon of US Airborne in 28mm, including supporting vehicles like two half tracks, two M4-A3's, and a light anti-tank gun. That rule system was awesome, but to get the fullest out of the game, it required a referee (or "GM") to adjudicate things like hidden enemies and such.

So, yeah, if the rules are tight and miniatures are available somewhere, I'm willing to play.

 LavuranGuard wrote:
This is pretty much the norm for historical gaming (FoW aside)

My thoughts, exactly. For the sci-fi/fantasy wargaming crowd, especially the younger ones (in gaming years, if not actual age), it may seem like an odd way of doing things, but for historical and RPG gamers it's par for the course. It's easier to do with skirmish-scale games in in most genres, but it's perfectly possible with mass battles, too, if suitable models are available elsewhere.

Yes!
I have an entire games club (see link in my sig) that is pretty much based around games that don't have an associated miniatures line and miniatures that may or may not have a specific ruleset. Almost all of the games we play have a mechanic that allows you to stat up any miniature or unit you have.

Just a few of the games we play:
-Song of Blades and Heroes: Warband size fantasy skirmish games of a similar size to Mordheim. We use 25-28mm Fantasy miniatures from 20+ different manufacturers.

-Tomorrow's War: Hard Sci-Fi Platoon combat in 28mm scale. A few squads per side.

-Mech Attack: Mech V Mech combat with combined arms (5-12 units per side) we use rebased mechwarrior clix ( 10mm, N. or 1:144 scale)

-Panzer 8 Sci-Fi. Small Scale Mass Battle, extremely fast playing and streamlined (Free). We use it when we want to put a ton of our rebased mechwarrior clix figs on the table.

-In The Emperor's Name: A Free fan created ruleset for warband size 40k encounters. We use it for Post Apocalyptic games with a very wide variety of 28mm miniatures and vehicles.

When we do a campaign, we make up our own background and factions around the miniatures that each of us has. Some of us still play 40k from time to time or other games, but in general we give no credence to any company that tells us what figures we should buy or what game we should use them with.

Also, there's far to many companies making really neat figures without their own ruleset to make us want to only use figs that have a ruleset included.

Vulcan wrote:Maybe.

If the game looks like something I'd be interested in and would go with my minis, sure. I'd love to see a really solid substitute for the absolutely crummy WFB rules that I could try and sell people on.

Maybe Try Armies of Arcana or Kings of War.

LavuranGuard wrote:This is pretty much the norm for historical gaming (FoW aside), so yes I've done it many times.

Yep, It's really only folks in the sci-fi or fantasy realm who seem to want their figs, rules, and fluff from the same company.

insaniak wrote:Assuming it was a game that I was interested in playing, and suitable miniatures were available elsewhere, sure.

The trick is either having a setting that is good enough to explain people using assorted miniatures in a way that is new and interesting, and/or having rules that are good enough to make the game one that people want to play regardless of the setting or the miniatures being a little mismatched.

Just as miniatures need not be tied to one specific ruleset, Miniatures and Rules need not be tied to a specific background. I wish more folks realized that Miniatures, Rules and Background can be combined in anyway the player wants.

Most Generic games have a unit creation system so you can match the figures to the stats. When you find a generic game that plays well, you can easily use it whatever setting you like (Anything from Tokien, to Discworld to Warhammer...) or make up your own.

Aerethan wrote:An example for this would be a Mordheim-esque game. GW has pretty much abandoned that, but there is still model support for it using WFB models.

Try Song of Blades and Heroes. Can accommodate all your Mordeheim figures (and any other figures) and has an $8 expansion with a very nice campaign system.

Peregrine wrote:Assuming two conditions are met:
1) People actually play your game. Let's be realistic here, players for random rule sets with no models are much rarer than players for games like 40k/warmachine/etc, and I'm not going to buy a book that's just going to sit on my shelf collecting dust.

This is the biggest rub of course. You pretty much have to either have a group of friends that are willing to play these games, or build your own group from the ground up. I think it's worth the effort to do so, but I completely understand why lots of folks would rather buy into a game that includes a built-in player base.

Peregrine wrote: 2) Your rules have a clear design concept and offer a compelling reason to use them instead of the rules that were supposed to go with the miniatures I'd be using. IOW, if you write alternate rules for my 40k models you'd better do a good job of telling me why your rules are much more enjoyable than 40k, or I'll just play 40k.

There are alot of games out there that have been well-reviewed and analyzed, it's just that folks have to take the initiative to go out and find them.

Peregrine wrote: 3) Your production quality is acceptable. If you want me to buy a few sheets of paper stapled together with some mspaint graphics, forget it. If I'm buying something purely for the rules I expect to see professional-quality publishing work.

I wouldn't be so quick to discard low production rules. I like nice production values as much as the next guy, but I'd much rather have a nice playing game in a B&W PDF (Song of Blades and Heroes, Mech Attack, etc) than a high production values tome that I can't summon up the urge to play (battletech). Some rulesets do both, but not as many as I'd like.

Of course if the production values aren't there, then I expect a lower price, and that can be some of the appeal of alternate rulesets, being able to try out a game without a big pricetag.

There are alot of games out there that have been well-reviewed and analyzed, it's just that folks have to take the initiative to go out and find them.

Sure. What I mean is that for me to invest the time into playing an alternative set of rules for my models I want to have a reason for it, besides "because it's different". If you want me to buy your scifi wargame rules to use with my 40k models, you need to tell me why it's better than just playing 40k with my 40k models. If your rules are just another generic system with no real innovation or compelling reason to use them over the alternatives I'm not going to bother with them.

Unfortunately there seem to be a lot of people who think that "because I can" is enough of a reason to write a ruleset/fan codex/etc, and never bother with pesky details like having a solid vision for the product, or providing a reason for anyone to be interested in it. I've been there and done that, except in the end I tossed my RPG system in the garbage instead of trying to publish it.

I wouldn't be so quick to discard low production rules. I like nice production values as much as the next guy, but I'd much rather have a nice playing game in a B&W PDF (Song of Blades and Heroes, Mech Attack, etc) than a high production values tome that I can't summon up the urge to play (battletech). Some rulesets do both, but not as many as I'd like.

The subject of the thread was whether you'd buy rules, not whether you'd use free ones. If you want me to pay money for something I expect to see proper editing, graphics that weren't done in mspaint, etc. And my expectations are proportional to the price: if you want $5 for a pdf download, I'll settle for plain text with professional-level editing. If you want me to buy your $50 book I expect it to be at the same level as a $50 book for 40k/D&D/etc. If you're charging $50 for a book with an mspaint cover I'm not even going to look beyond the cover before I reject it.