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I think the best part of 40K is the setting. Many of the stories we are presented with from the Black Library are... average. At best. But the setting has so much scope for human drama, oppressed and living in terror under tyrannical and totalitarian rule, with the enemy literally at the gates. You know, grimdark. I love that gak. I just didn't get it at all from Eisenhorn, it was like it was set in a completely different universe, and so I was just left with a mediocre detective story without the saving grace of being set within the Imperium of Man.

Thoughts?

Quite a few Daemons can take a Warlord Titan one on one, and that was explicitly at his most powerful (He was pure Warpstuff, rather than possessing a host), and it also drained the majority of his powah.

I wasn't particularly bothered by the fact that some Imperial Worlds have decent living conditions in some areas of them.

The setting of most of Abnett's novels is a bit different from "mainstream" 40k. Cherubael taking down a Warlord titan isn't that much of a problem. Unbound daemons have always been described as being monstrously powerful ( although the rules do not realy do them justice ) and Cherubael appears to be a daemonprince at the very least.

Although Eisenhorn is not my fav, I do think it captures the 40k setting pretty well. I really do think of 40k as inspired by the four Black Adder series and Abnett's Inquisition novels always strike me as more Black Adder II/Black Adder the Third whereas so many other BL novels are more medieval- (SM) or WWI-inspired (IG).

What everyone else has said.....plus this:

Eisenhorn is meant to be based away from the mainstream idea of 40k (that of constant, total warfare) and showing you a glimpse into the rest of the Imperium, which is that of ignorance, intrigue and (among the high classes) decadence...Yes, the lower classes still live in squalor, and there is knowledge of the dangers of Chaos, but the whole point of it is you seeing the murky gray areas that Inquisitors have to delve into in order to uncover cults and the like in a world where noone else really cares. Its a recurring theme throughout those novels (and the Ravenor trilogy) of fighting against insidious forces amidst an uncaring population, one that thinks it knows the dangers of Xenos/Chaos and dabbles, but isnt prepared to admit them as this would take away from them having 'fun'...

A story about an Inquisitor on the front lines of a war would just be another generic novel from the Black Library (and would quickly see the Inquisitor in question killed), the whole point of the Eisenhorn, Ravenor (and i assume Bequin) t rilogies is to show you the rest of the Imperium, not the same bits you have seen before.

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
What everyone else has said.....plus this:

Eisenhorn is meant to be based away from the mainstream idea of 40k (that of constant, total warfare) and showing you a glimpse into the rest of the Imperium, which is that of ignorance, intrigue and (among the high classes) decadence...Yes, the lower classes still live in squalor, and there is knowledge of the dangers of Chaos, but the whole point of it is you seeing the murky gray areas that Inquisitors have to delve into in order to uncover cults and the like in a world where noone else really cares. Its a recurring theme throughout those novels (and the Ravenor trilogy) of fighting against insidious forces amidst an uncaring population, one that thinks it knows the dangers of Xenos/Chaos and dabbles, but isnt prepared to admit them as this would take away from them having 'fun'...

A story about an Inquisitor on the front lines of a war would just be another generic novel from the Black Library (and would quickly see the Inquisitor in question killed), the whole point of the Eisenhorn, Ravenor (and i assume Bequin) t rilogies is to show you the rest of the Imperium, not the same bits you have seen before.

Agreed.

I see Eisenhorn as a look at "how the other half lives" for 40k. ie: Away from the battlefields of war-worlds and into the battlefields of dark alleys, stratosphere-scraping spires and the hearts of the decadent and the desperate. As much as I enjoy them, though, Abnett shows a higher tech-base the most other 40k stories. His style lends to a little more traditional sci-fi flavor than one might expect, but I personally chalk that up to the Scarus Sector (or perhaps just the Helican Sub) having better tech than, say, Calixis or others.

In a galaxy with a million worlds an trillions of humans I would expect to see every possibility.

Eisenhorn captured a lot of what we knew had to be there but had never been detailed. Personally I much preferred the Eisenhorn story to ravenor. Ravenor didn't quite have the personal change that Eisenhorn went through.

My opinion on the third trilogy is being withheld. Having read the first book, I'm not impressed however he has 1200 pages to convince me otherwise...

I think it captures a neglected area of 40k. aka not Space Marines, not battlefields. That was well appreciated in my mind.

 Harriticus wrote:
I think it captures a neglected area of 40k. aka not Space Marines, not battlefields. That was well appreciated in my mind.

I think it captures the neglected area of some poor-mans facsimile of 40K, where everyone lives a much higher quality of life. I didn't want just another war-porn novel, and I quite liked the Eisenhorn trilogy. It just didn't feel like it was set in the 40K universe. It was just a mediocre detective story set in a generic sci-fi setting. I didn't feel like it made use of any of the settings unique hooks, and the tools he did use often seemed to be at odds with the universe as it is presented in the studio material.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
I think it captures a neglected area of 40k. aka not Space Marines, not battlefields. That was well appreciated in my mind.

I think it captures the neglected area of some poor-mans facsimile of 40K, where everyone lives a much higher quality of life. I didn't want just another war-porn novel, and I quite liked the Eisenhorn trilogy. It just didn't feel like it was set in the 40K universe. It was just a mediocre detective story set in a generic sci-fi setting. I didn't feel like it made use of any of the settings unique hooks, and the tools he did use often seemed to be at odds with the universe as it is presented in the studio material.

Its just a few worlds in one little Sector....the fact that the average tech level is higher than average (and isnt on at least one world he visits) means nothing.

Do you have any examples of what you mean? Which bits dont feel like they are part of the 40k universe? Because from the way i see it, its exactly in the 40k universe, for all the reasons i specified above...

 Revenent Reiko wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
I think it captures a neglected area of 40k. aka not Space Marines, not battlefields. That was well appreciated in my mind.

I think it captures the neglected area of some poor-mans facsimile of 40K, where everyone lives a much higher quality of life. I didn't want just another war-porn novel, and I quite liked the Eisenhorn trilogy. It just didn't feel like it was set in the 40K universe. It was just a mediocre detective story set in a generic sci-fi setting. I didn't feel like it made use of any of the settings unique hooks, and the tools he did use often seemed to be at odds with the universe as it is presented in the studio material.

Its just a few worlds in one little Sector....the fact that the average tech level is higher than average (and isnt on at least one world he visits) means nothing.

Do you have any examples of what you mean? Which bits dont feel like they are part of the 40k universe? Because from the way i see it, its exactly in the 40k universe, for all the reasons i specified above...

Well, when he goes to conduct the trials of the heretics just before fighting the Warlord Titan, the world (only fifty years liberated) is described as being nice and lush, with lots of people out boating on the lakes, with coffee shops and malls and stuff. Most of the worlds are just analogues for our own, with people living pretty much regular lives. Also, anti-grav is everywhere. Every man and his dog has some kind of hovering speeder. They have rental speeder companies, for crying out loud!

I can understand the elite of the Imperium living in relative decadence, but it should be shown that said decadence is a distinct contrast to the way the overwhelming majority of people live. Seeing how people manage to live under such oppressive conditions is much more interesting than seeing how people live in some generic sci-fi setting. And Abnett is a skilled enough writer to be able to convey those oppressive conditions and still tell a human story within it. The over-all feeling I got from the Imperium, as relayed by Mr Abnett, was that it's quite a nice place to live, and I can have a hover-car when I get there.

Also, anti-grav is everywhere. Every man and his dog has some kind of hovering speeder. They have rental speeder companies, for crying out loud!

I loved the series. I loved the way it portrayed the Imperium of Man, the people living inside it, everything.

I thought it fit perfectly. Not every human world in the Imperium is covered in bas-relief skulls and giant Space marine statues. I actually think the Eisenhorn novels describe the 40K setting better (or at least different that the same old crap) than GWs "official" stuff has, lately.

They are only increasingly into describing the Imperium as WWII Russia in space, only made of hive worlds filled with 500 billion people, screaming and moaning in squalid hell-like conditions as they live out miserable lives in gulags of of pain and suffering as they are eaten by mutants, while the agents of the Imperium look on with utter indifference. Ugh, you can practically gag on the dystopia.

The Imperium I came to the hobby in used to have civilized worlds..hell, even agri-worlds, where people could live out lives that were downright decent. Some worlds used to not see war of any fashion for hundreds of years, happily tithing away goods to Terra.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Revenent Reiko wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
I think it captures a neglected area of 40k. aka not Space Marines, not battlefields. That was well appreciated in my mind.

I think it captures the neglected area of some poor-mans facsimile of 40K, where everyone lives a much higher quality of life. I didn't want just another war-porn novel, and I quite liked the Eisenhorn trilogy. It just didn't feel like it was set in the 40K universe. It was just a mediocre detective story set in a generic sci-fi setting. I didn't feel like it made use of any of the settings unique hooks, and the tools he did use often seemed to be at odds with the universe as it is presented in the studio material.

Its just a few worlds in one little Sector....the fact that the average tech level is higher than average (and isnt on at least one world he visits) means nothing.

Do you have any examples of what you mean? Which bits dont feel like they are part of the 40k universe? Because from the way i see it, its exactly in the 40k universe, for all the reasons i specified above...

Well, when he goes to conduct the trials of the heretics just before fighting the Warlord Titan, the world (only fifty years liberated) is described as being nice and lush, with lots of people out boating on the lakes, with coffee shops and malls and stuff. Most of the worlds are just analogues for our own, with people living pretty much regular lives. Also, anti-grav is everywhere. Every man and his dog has some kind of hovering speeder. They have rental speeder companies, for crying out loud!

I can understand the elite of the Imperium living in relative decadence, but it should be shown that said decadence is a distinct contrast to the way the overwhelming majority of people live. Seeing how people manage to live under such oppressive conditions is much more interesting than seeing how people live in some generic sci-fi setting. And Abnett is a skilled enough writer to be able to convey those oppressive conditions and still tell a human story within it. The over-all feeling I got from the Imperium, as relayed by Mr Abnett, was that it's quite a nice place to live, and I can have a hover-car when I get there.

Also, anti-grav is everywhere. Every man and his dog has some kind of hovering speeder. They have rental speeder companies, for crying out loud!

Yeah, that world was exceptionally nice, and doesn't fit well with the typical Imperial world at all. Of course when my Dark Heresy players took a train into the upper part of a lower hive district, they were greeted by two hobos having a 'knife' fight over a bundle of rats. But they didn't even have knives, just sharpened bits of metal that dug into their hands as they stabbed at each other.

On point, yes, Abnett writes with a higher tech level than other 40k authors, which might not be you bag, as they say.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
I think it captures a neglected area of 40k. aka not Space Marines, not battlefields. That was well appreciated in my mind.

I think it captures the neglected area of some poor-mans facsimile of 40K, where everyone lives a much higher quality of life. I didn't want just another war-porn novel, and I quite liked the Eisenhorn trilogy. It just didn't feel like it was set in the 40K universe. It was just a mediocre detective story set in a generic sci-fi setting. I didn't feel like it made use of any of the settings unique hooks, and the tools he did use often seemed to be at odds with the universe as it is presented in the studio material.

It actually made sense you saw the high life of the Imperium. Eisenhorn is an Inquisitor, the top of the top of Imperial society. These guys get anything they want. He isn't going to walk around in the drudges of a Hive City.

 Harriticus wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
I think it captures a neglected area of 40k. aka not Space Marines, not battlefields. That was well appreciated in my mind.

I think it captures the neglected area of some poor-mans facsimile of 40K, where everyone lives a much higher quality of life. I didn't want just another war-porn novel, and I quite liked the Eisenhorn trilogy. It just didn't feel like it was set in the 40K universe. It was just a mediocre detective story set in a generic sci-fi setting. I didn't feel like it made use of any of the settings unique hooks, and the tools he did use often seemed to be at odds with the universe as it is presented in the studio material.

It actually made sense you saw the high life of the Imperium. Eisenhorn is an Inquisitor, the top of the top of Imperial society. These guys get anything they want. He isn't going to walk around in the drudges of a Hive City.

Well, that's situational. Don't forget their trip to the twist club when they posed as mutants.

Abnett is doing what any fan of 40K does, carve out a niche that is their own slice of the galaxy. Not everything has to be blood and guts and eternal war. That's just the background dressing for your tales, be they hopeless or hopeful.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Revenent Reiko wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
I think it captures a neglected area of 40k. aka not Space Marines, not battlefields. That was well appreciated in my mind.

I think it captures the neglected area of some poor-mans facsimile of 40K, where everyone lives a much higher quality of life. I didn't want just another war-porn novel, and I quite liked the Eisenhorn trilogy. It just didn't feel like it was set in the 40K universe. It was just a mediocre detective story set in a generic sci-fi setting. I didn't feel like it made use of any of the settings unique hooks, and the tools he did use often seemed to be at odds with the universe as it is presented in the studio material.

Its just a few worlds in one little Sector....the fact that the average tech level is higher than average (and isnt on at least one world he visits) means nothing.

Do you have any examples of what you mean? Which bits dont feel like they are part of the 40k universe? Because from the way i see it, its exactly in the 40k universe, for all the reasons i specified above...

Well, when he goes to conduct the trials of the heretics just before fighting the Warlord Titan, the world (only fifty years liberated) is described as being nice and lush, with lots of people out boating on the lakes, with coffee shops and malls and stuff. Most of the worlds are just analogues for our own, with people living pretty much regular lives. Also, anti-grav is everywhere. Every man and his dog has some kind of hovering speeder. They have rental speeder companies, for crying out loud!

I can understand the elite of the Imperium living in relative decadence, but it should be shown that said decadence is a distinct contrast to the way the overwhelming majority of people live. Seeing how people manage to live under such oppressive conditions is much more interesting than seeing how people live in some generic sci-fi setting. And Abnett is a skilled enough writer to be able to convey those oppressive conditions and still tell a human story within it. The over-all feeling I got from the Imperium, as relayed by Mr Abnett, was that it's quite a nice place to live, and I can have a hover-car when I get there.

Also, anti-grav is everywhere. Every man and his dog has some kind of hovering speeder. They have rental speeder companies, for crying out loud!

Yes, i thought that the time gap between liberation and scenic bliss was a little too short, but it really didnt bother me. And really, 50 years is a long time....

There are speeder rental companies on the Capital world of a sub sector yes...so what? Its the capital world of a Sub-Sector and therefore meant to be 'better' than other planets, that is what prosperity brings you in a galaxy where you can pay for imports...

Thats not correct, the vast majority of people in the imperium live completely unaware of the war and suffering that others go through (apart from paying their tithes on time), thats been one of the central tenets of 40k for ages, that while this horrific warfare is being waged on some planets, most of them have no idea what is going on. Its one reason why in some novels (by Abnett as well as other authors) they always talk about the shock the locals are going through. Not just 'my home is being destroyed', but 'how could this have happened', and that disbelief comes from the almost total lack of knowledge of anything that the majority of civilians have. And yes, while there may be too many speeders in total, the Imperium is a nice place to live....for most people...(and ignoring the - subtle in most cases - brainwashing/propanganda that they endure on a daily basis)

If you want to read about people living under wartime conditions, then dont read a story thats isnt set on the front lines...The Inquisitor series is specifically written to show you an insight into the life on an Inquisitor, and through that a glimpse in to the life of a normal citizen, not refugees.

Saying that, i dont want to appear snippy or like i am discounting your opinion at all, im merely offering my opinion, so please dont feel like im haivng a go or taunting or whatever, sometime sthe lack of tone in text is a real problem Im sorry you didnt like the books, as they are some of my favourites (hence why i am arguing for them so much), but each to their own...

I like the setting of Eisenhorn and Ravenor. It fits rather well considering the Imperium is made up of different worlds. Some think the wheel is evil (Ravenor), others are stuck in what is Medieval time for us, Knights on Horse back, etc. Some have Neanderthals on them. (3rd Edition Rulebook). Even the Big Rule Book for 6th makes reference to Imperial worlds that don't believe in the Emperor, don't believe in Terra and/or don't worship the Emperor.

To live in the Dark Grim setting of the game, every world is at war, etc. But that strikes the problem that every world would fall to Chaos much much faster, they would have no hope and the Chaos Gods would have a far easier time gaining followers. The Imperium can't provide you the life you want as quickly as a Chaos God could. You have to work and toil in the Imperium, or be born into class. Chaos can make you a beloved ruler in a day.
There are sectors which won't be touched by constant war or problems of the greater Imperium. Some have to be kept low-tech because they are the only worlds capable of growing food for the Imperium.

The Grim-Dark Future is really only a structural part of the game setting, not a structural part of the fictional setting where the books lie.

I think it's important to remember most civilizations operate on a core, semi-core and periphery system. The core is your principal center of power and population, it is a central point for technology, production and so on. Eisenhorn spends most of his time in the core; these are the worlds of significance, which bind sectors of space together, produce the great volume of goods and so on. He's not just an inquisitor, he's one of the best, a veteran, focused on the biggest threats to the Imperium, especially in the later books. If a the core falls, so too does everything else.

Thus the worlds he focuses on tend to be highly advanced; the Imperium is a steward of some fantastically advanced technology, it's just not widespread. Read some of the fluff for Necromunda and the equipment available to the Spyrers, noble youth with the best equipment money can buy, and that's on a declining hive world. The Leman Russ shouldn't be considered the highpoint of Imperial tech; what you see on the tabletop and in the codexes, and most of the books, is the frontline, where sacrifices must be made in terms of performance for reliability and the logistical needs of an army.

The periphery is where you see great divergence in the Imperium. I'd wager most core worlds are largely comparable to what's seen in Eisenhorn, and indeed, many semi-core worlds of secondary of tertiary importance, with some outliers above (Terra, Forgeworlds, etc), and some below (military worlds like Cadia). The periphery, however, serves relatively straightforwards roles for the Imperium, like every other Empire in history. They are sources of resources, and buffers for more important regions. The Imperium doesn't care how advanced a world is, provided it meets tithing requirements, and these worlds, being on the frontier, are often the scene of 40k conflicts.

If a world is resource poor, the Imperium and the AdMech will not invest in developing it, and thus the world will exist in whatever state the local populace can maintain, whether that be stone age, or of noteworthy sophistication. A resource rich world, whether that be in manpower, tech, raw resources or anything else will see Imperial knowledge and technology flow in, but only insofar as is neccessary to acquire the resource they desire. A world with a large population well suited to the Imperial Guard, for instance, will likely not see much uplifting by the Imperium; brutish, violent conditions breeds good, effective soldiers. A world, however, with Dark Age factories or STCs will see enormous investment in military defenses and research facilities, calling the best and brightest from across the Imperium to live and work there. There's enormous variation possible in the periphery, which most "official" canon doesn't really consider.

Truth be told, so many concepts taken for granted have no logical rational. Take, for instance, "Imperial Architecture," the gothic spires and whatnot. Considering many worlds were populated prior to the Great Crusade, what reason do they have for utilizing a "Terran" architectural style? Where did this style and focus on grandeur come from? How would it spread? Would not a colonial group from world x take their traditions and tech level with them? Abnett, quite tellingly, doesn't focus on things like that in his writing; he lets you fill in the blanks, and tends to focus on non-standard elements, such as the mechanical birds of one world, or the covered, heated walkways of another.

Unlike most BL writers, he considers the enormous diversity of the Imperium, and gives it far more "screentime" than GW seems willing to consider. This is an Imperium of a million worlds, and it is constantly reiterated that it is a decentralized, diverse empire, because it's enormous size prohibits much uniformity or direct control. In fact, it is often written that the Departmento Munitorum's standardized munitions is about the only truly uniform thing in the entire Imperium of Man, yet everyone assumes every world has roughly the same tech level, the same cultural fabric, and same grimdark factor, with only the occasional outlier.

I understand the concept of worlds with great variations, and the 'sheltered' worlds in the heart of the Imperium, (although isn't the Scarus sector home to the Eye of Terror?), it's just that the way Abnett portrays the Imperium clashes sharply with my understanding of the studio material.

Revenant Reiko wrote: the Imperium is a nice place to live....for most people...

This is very, very different from any of the established studio background. I think I understand what people mean when they say 'Abnettverse' now.

*sigh* wrote a nice detailed reply and it has been lost in an Error....let me try to re-write what i did before...

EDIT: My quote really isnt far from established fluff at all. Bearing in mind that by 'nice' i am talking relatively, so i dont mean 'perfect' at all, but i do mean 'not destryoed by war'...

unless there has been a major retcon (entirley likely these days i suppose) then there has always been a line along the lines of 'the majority of inhabited worlds incorporated into the Imperium of Man never know the horror of war' which i have always assumed to mean 'total war' as opposed to the odd rebellion/cult crushing/mutant purge/riots which spring up everywhere at one point or another.

the 'Abnettverse' refers to the locations and people (which are many now as he has had so much input) that Abnett has made up to inhabit his little corner of the Imperium, not the setting...he even calls it that himself now since he has heard it from other people...

Sorry you were unimpressed. I find it to be some of the best of the 40k fiction out there and have read it multiple times. Sure it has a few flaws but I think it is brilliant overall.

I would also point out, to those that are referring to how Abnetts universe is different than studio depictions of the universe, that each and every author at BL writes the universe a bit differently (with the exception perhaps being the HH novels), but Abnetts depictions have seen more things carried over to the core game and other novels than any others.