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Please write down your thoughts.

No.
Because.

They had a little nerf but they are still top tier.

Explain.

As in "Were they nerfed by 6th edition?"

if nerf = being made ineffective due to knee jerk corrections resulting from massive community outcry, then NO, they are still, point for point, monsters compared to other codices

if nerf = being made less effective by changes that also effected everyother force in the game... then YES, they were nerfed

But why are the GKs so OP?

 Tomten wrote:
But why are the GKs so OP?

Who said they were?

Why are they OP?

How about this for an example a stave bought as an upgrade that gives the wielder a 2++ save in melee.

Thats a 2++ save on a paladin for less than an IC would pay for a 4++ in most codex's.

Thats just one example and i've personally seen several armies fail to cause a single wound because the GK player uses this.

hobojebus wrote:
Why are they OP?

How about this for an example a stave bought as an upgrade that gives the wielder a 2++ save in melee.

Thats a 2++ save on a paladin for less than an IC would pay for a 4++ in most codex's.

Thats just one example and i've personally seen several armies fail to cause a single wound because the GK player uses this.

First of all, that is an example out of context and makes no sense. A two wound model (paladin) paying 5 points more than a three wound model (CSM Lord) for the exact same change in invuln save (-3) is hardly an example of OPness. But when the paladin does it, he forfeits the ability to hurt 2+ armour and only has 2 attacks at Str 4.

As Kirby or anyone else would tell you, you drop Paladins with weight of fire, not with extra special shiny weapons. You do know that the 2++ is only to CC attacks, right? Maybe the several armies you've seen fail need to be better thought out.

 Tomten wrote:
But why are the GKs so OP?

Grey Knights get tons of psychic powers, Force weapons so they can instakill almost anything, better weapons, and do it all for only costing a little bit more than their SM cousins.They get ridiculous upgrades for next to nothing on their vehicles (See Psyflemen Dreadnaught).

 Lobukia wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Why are they OP?

How about this for an example a stave bought as an upgrade that gives the wielder a 2++ save in melee.

Thats a 2++ save on a paladin for less than an IC would pay for a 4++ in most codex's.

Thats just one example and i've personally seen several armies fail to cause a single wound because the GK player uses this.

First of all, that is an example out of context and makes no sense. A two wound model (paladin) paying 5 points more than a three wound model (CSM Lord) for the exact same change in invuln save (-3) is hardly an example of OPness. But when the paladin does it, he forfeits the ability to hurt 2+ armour and only has 2 attacks at Str 4.

As Kirby or anyone else would tell you, you drop Paladins with weight of fire, not with extra special shiny weapons. You do know that the 2++ is only to CC attacks, right? Maybe the several armies you've seen fail need to be better thought out.

Lobukia, you're example is poor too as you can't say a -3 to invuln save is believable. If I said a -1 change to invuln was a big deal from having no Invuln (6++) then yeah that is really minor. If it's a change from 3++ to 2++?? That's HUGE. Now you're talking about taking it from 5++ to 2++ for 5 points. Well worth the dropping of the weapon.

And most importantly, your personal attack on him at the end does nothing except look bad on yourself. There's no need to be rude.

Its a dirt cheap upgrade that protects the entire unit from power fist attacks in melee one of the areas where GK were supposedly nerferd due to their weapons becoming majority AP3.

As for only having 2 str 4 attacks boo frickin hoo, one model protects the entire unit from ap2 melee attacks.

Thats not even mentioning things like hammer hand which adds to your str before the doubling effects of thunderhammers which is unique to that army.

Or the bs rifleman dreadnoughts with str8 autocannons.

People in my group write all comer lists they dont tailor which is why when someone drops draigo wing in their laps they struggle to shift 20 models with 40 wounds and a 2+ save.

GK's were broken in 5th and they still are in 6th when people write abusive lists.

hobojebus wrote:
Its a dirt cheap upgrade that protects the entire unit from power fist attacks in melee one of the areas where GK were supposedly nerferd due to their weapons becoming majority AP3.

As for only having 2 str 4 attacks boo frickin hoo, one model protects the entire unit from ap2 melee attacks.

Thats not even mentioning things like hammer hand which adds to your str before the doubling effects of thunderhammers which is unique to that army.

Or the bs rifleman dreadnoughts with str8 autocannons.

People in my group write all comer lists they dont tailor which is why when someone drops draigo wing in their laps they struggle to shift 20 models with 40 wounds and a 2+ save.

GK's were broken in 5th and they still are in 6th when people write abusive lists.

1. Staves are annoying I agree but how many people take them? From my experiences not many.
2. False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.
3. Ohhh Str 8 AP 4 autocannons woop de doo.
4. Use TH/SS termies watch paladins drop.

i

 felixander wrote:

 Tomten wrote:
But why are the GKs so OP?

Grey Knights get tons of psychic powers, Force weapons so they can instakill almost anything, better weapons, and do it all for only costing a little bit more than their SM cousins.They get ridiculous upgrades for next to nothing on their vehicles (See Psyflemen Dreadnaught).

 Lobukia wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Why are they OP?

How about this for an example a stave bought as an upgrade that gives the wielder a 2++ save in melee.

Thats a 2++ save on a paladin for less than an IC would pay for a 4++ in most codex's.

Thats just one example and i've personally seen several armies fail to cause a single wound because the GK player uses this.

First of all, that is an example out of context and makes no sense. A two wound model (paladin) paying 5 points more than a three wound model (CSM Lord) for the exact same change in invuln save (-3) is hardly an example of OPness. But when the paladin does it, he forfeits the ability to hurt 2+ armour and only has 2 attacks at Str 4.

As Kirby or anyone else would tell you, you drop Paladins with weight of fire, not with extra special shiny weapons. You do know that the 2++ is only to CC attacks, right? Maybe the several armies you've seen fail need to be better thought out.

Lobukia, you're example is poor too as you can't say a -3 to invuln save is believable. If I said a -1 change to invuln was a big deal from having no Invuln (6++) then yeah that is really minor. If it's a change from 3++ to 2++?? That's HUGE. Now you're talking about taking it from 5++ to 2++ for 5 points. Well worth the dropping of the weapon.

And most importantly, your personal attack on him at the end does nothing except look bad on yourself. There's no need to be rude.

No personal attack at all. If you're assaulting a unit that has 2++ in CC but 5++ from shooting.... you should be shooting it. He never said it was his armies that failed (in fact, I took it to mean they weren't his armies... seriously, this is the first time I've seen someone say that warding staves were the OP thing in a GK list). I play against GK all the time. I've had some troubles, I've lost a few, I've also tabled them. Never did I find a warding stave to be the thing I was worrying about. Once you know its there, you shoot it with an AP 2 weapon a few times or rapid fire some bolters at it and move on... exact same thing you should do if there were two SM terminators on the board. If your force can't handle two TDA wounds, then yes, it isn't very well thought out.

Again, its 2++ in CC only, and its a chunk of points. An entire squad of Stave Palladins would be laughed at, not feared.

Look, are GK a good force? Yes. Are they still at the top of tournament lists? No, the Aussie open didn't even have a GK list in the top 15. Duel Con had 1 GK list barely in the top ten and another barely in the top 20! GK were unremarkable if you look at DuelCon, Golden Throne, Nova, and the Masters. They are so beatable and I'd rank them 5th at best in current power rankings. For crying out loud, Orks rank higher in the current 6th edition tournament wins than GK. As do DE, 'Crons, Space Wolves, and Daemons.

CSM might even have them now. 5th or 6th best in a competitive field cannot make you the OP codex. With DA around the corner, they'll likely drop to 7th. Edging out SM =/= broken.

Staves are annoying I agree but how many people take them? From my experiences not many.

A friend has a draigo wing army allegedly because it was the cheapest option he has 1 in each unit.

False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.

The codex says its done before and codex trumps BRB.

Ohhh Str 8 AP 4 autocannons woop de doo.

4 re-rolled shots that can easily pop vehicles is nasty and an unnecessary addition to dreadnoughts.

Use TH/SS termies watch paladins drop.

Which is fine if your playing c:sm, if your for example a SW player each TH/SS termie is 63 points and still has no sure way to get around the stave, 2++ in melee is BS plain and simple.

And not every army has TH/SS terminators.

hobojebus wrote:

Staves are annoying I agree but how many people take them? From my experiences not many.

A friend has a draigo wing army allegedly because it was the cheapest option he has 1 in each unit.

False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.

The codex says its done before and codex trumps BRB.

Ohhh Str 8 AP 4 autocannons woop de doo.

4 re-rolled shots that can easily pop vehicles is nasty and an unnecessary addition to dreadnoughts.

Use TH/SS termies watch paladins drop.

Which is fine if your playing c:sm, if your for example a SW player each TH/SS termie is 63 points and still has no sure way to get around the stave, 2++ in melee is BS plain and simple.

And not every army has TH/SS terminators.

If you're playing SW, drop 5 relentless PC or MM on the Palladins or a Murderous Hurricane, or Jaws, or a squad of combi melta WG, or decked out Grey Hunter squad, or mob the squad with any of the 'Claw varients. Taking the one unit you seriously overpay for and throwing it against its better is not the way to take anything down.

Every army can shot a terminator or (as Orks do) force 1's by weight of dice.

Edit: a modest Pally squad of 5 is roughly 425 points. You can drop pod two packs of WG (8 each) all with Combi-Meltas that kill that squad in one turn of fire at the same cost and will still be on the board to fight something else afterward.

Just because Necrons have become stupidly powerful with 9 fliers doesn't mean that Grey Knights got worse. And all of the examples you gave would be brought were examples of Space Wolves. Most armies don't naturally bring things just to kill GK Paladins. Eitherway you look at most GK models and they get more than other models for practically nothing.

Strike Squads gain storm bolters over bolters, FORCE weapons over CCW (not just Power weapons), Psyk-Out grenades, The Aegis, Deep Strike, PE: Daemons, 2 Psychic powers, can get a heavy weapon at 5 guys (and a SECOND at 10), and can all upgrade to get even better melee weapons. For 4 points each. Mind you, for a sergeant to bring a Power weapon it's 15 points, but GK get a Force Weapon AND all the other upgrades for 4.

Psyflemen are great at wreckin' vehicles, MCs, and takin' hits.

They're still a very powerful codex with lots of viable options.

 felixander wrote:
Just because Necrons have become stupidly powerful with 9 fliers doesn't mean that Grey Knights got worse. And all of the examples you gave would be brought were examples of Space Wolves. Most armies don't naturally bring things just to kill GK Paladins. Eitherway you look at most GK models and they get more than other models for practically nothing.

Strike Squads gain storm bolters over bolters, FORCE weapons over CCW (not just Power weapons), Psyk-Out grenades, The Aegis, Deep Strike, PE: Daemons, 2 Psychic powers, can get a heavy weapon at 5 guys (and a SECOND at 10), and can all upgrade to get even better melee weapons. For 4 points each. Mind you, for a sergeant to bring a Power weapon it's 15 points, but GK get a Force Weapon AND all the other upgrades for 4.

Psyflemen are great at wreckin' vehicles, MCs, and takin' hits.

Yeah, my examples were SW, because that's what he was using :\

Orks: A typical Draigo Wing list is under 25 models and under 35 wounds and 9 HP at 2k. Orks on the other hand can put out 118 models, 130 wounds, 13 Hp in a 2k force. Mathhammer is on the orks' side.

Necrons: do we need to count the ways?

CSM: Spawn, tzeetch CSM, Hatred, Hammer of Wrath every where, Burning Axes, Fiends and Defilers in CC, etc. Bring the 25 little flesh boxes on

SM: Melta bikes, 40 pts Assault Termies, Vindicators, Combi Melta/Plasma Sternguard, Rending Flyers, certainly good options. Plus GK really struggle with units over AV 12 and even more with AV 14, SM have some of those

Nids: Mass of dice in CC AND AP 2 options in the Monster zoo

Daemons: WD DS cheese cake everywhere

I can go on....

There aren't many easy buttons in 40k, but GK hardly walk as tall as they used to



Again, its not like GK are a close 2nd, and Draigo wing is hardly their best list

hobojebus wrote:

Staves are annoying I agree but how many people take them? From my experiences not many.

A friend has a draigo wing army allegedly because it was the cheapest option he has 1 in each unit.

Okay woo shot it dead

False hammerhand would be applied after read multiple modifiers in the rulebook.

The codex says its done before and codex trumps BRB.

Wrong try again the faq changes that besides the differnece between str 9 and 10 is negligable against most things

Ohhh Str 8 AP 4 autocannons woop de doo.

4 re-rolled shots that can easily pop vehicles is nasty and an unnecessary addition to dreadnoughts.

use a horde army not so great now is it and its an av 12 armor its easy to remove.

Use TH/SS termies watch paladins drop.

Which is fine if your playing c:sm, if your for example a SW player each TH/SS termie is 63 points and still has no sure way to get around the stave, 2++ in melee is BS plain and simple.

And not every army has TH/SS terminators.

Every army has a way to drop paladins (wraithguard, demolisher cannon's, splinter cannons, dark lances, railguns, boneswords, deathray, doomsday cannon, so forth and so on.)

Find yours.

Yeah, they got nerfed.

Of course, that's entirely relative. They were ridiculously powerful in the previous edition. This just brings them down closer to parity with the other armies.

where did it change hammerhand modifier applies beforex2?

pls reference

 Lobukia wrote:

 felixander wrote:
Just because Necrons have become stupidly powerful with 9 fliers doesn't mean that Grey Knights got worse. And all of the examples you gave would be brought were examples of Space Wolves. Most armies don't naturally bring things just to kill GK Paladins. Eitherway you look at most GK models and they get more than other models for practically nothing.

Strike Squads gain storm bolters over bolters, FORCE weapons over CCW (not just Power weapons), Psyk-Out grenades, The Aegis, Deep Strike, PE: Daemons, 2 Psychic powers, can get a heavy weapon at 5 guys (and a SECOND at 10), and can all upgrade to get even better melee weapons. For 4 points each. Mind you, for a sergeant to bring a Power weapon it's 15 points, but GK get a Force Weapon AND all the other upgrades for 4.

Psyflemen are great at wreckin' vehicles, MCs, and takin' hits.

Yeah, my examples were SW, because that's what he was using :\

Orks: A typical Draigo Wing list is under 25 models and under 35 wounds and 9 HP at 2k. Orks on the other hand can put out 118 models, 130 wounds, 13 Hp in a 2k force. Mathhammer is on the orks' side.

Necrons: do we need to count the ways?

CSM: Spawn, tzeetch CSM, Hatred, Hammer of Wrath every where, Burning Axes, Fiends and Defilers in CC, etc. Bring the 25 little flesh boxes on

SM: Melta bikes, 40 pts Assault Termies, Vindicators, Combi Melta/Plasma Sternguard, Rending Flyers, certainly good options. Plus GK really struggle with units over AV 12 and even more with AV 14, SM have some of those

Nids: Mass of dice in CC AND AP 2 options in the Monster zoo

Daemons: WD DS cheese cake everywhere

I can go on....

There aren't many easy buttons in 40k, but GK hardly walk as tall as they used to



Again, its not like GK are a close 2nd, and Draigo wing is hardly their best list

But it's not like Paladins aren't the only part of the book that's cheesy. I've frequently pointed out their other models. "Oh, you've got a 30 man squad of Termagaunts/Ork Boyz/etc? Here's a squad of purifiers. Good-bye half of your squad. Oh and we brought Halberds so we go first."

As for AV14 they can easily have Hammers everywhere and Coteaz + 10 Servitors that have Multi-Meltas? Mixed with Jokaero's who also get those? (Oh and as IG I pay 45 points for a single Servitor with a MultiMelta... you pay 10).

Stuff is seriously undercosted in the book and a lot of things are overpowered. No matter how you try to counter it it's simply true.

6th edition only made GK's even more broken against Daemons.

In 5th, the only local GK player who ever took Strikes or Interceptors was a Draigowing player. Now, everyone and their mothers are taking Strikes because they're solid value for pts, are a Scoring unit and everyone else who can is spaming the updated Flamers.
Warp Quake is broken-as-feth gak and has caused me to yet again shelve my entire army becuase there's no physical way for me to even deploy!

20 Warp Quake dudes who get first turn is pretty much auto-loss for Daemons due to the massive area they can cover, especially when you spread them out their full 2" coherency.

Maybe in another 10 years when GK's get balanced I can play my poor Daemon army...

 pizzaguardian wrote:
where did it change hammerhand modifier applies beforex2?

pls reference

Read the power.



GK are still the 2nd strongest army in the game behind crons.

Infantry access to S7 rending weapons with high quantity of fire

Average weapon S5 (every other army is 3 or 4)

Still the most cost effective MEQ option despite slightly higher cost

Great anti-flier defense compared to most armies (psycannons can move and go heavy 4 vs fliers).

5+ DTW across almost the whole army minus inquisition (even sometimes then with psychic inquisitors), 4+ sometimes.

Coteaz

Inquisition units being incredibly strong for the point cost

Grand master making anything scoring, even vehicles

Stormraven that easily insta-kills almost any psyker from across the board no matter if they are embedded in a unit.

Dredknight still undercosted but only used less often because of the cheese of 4 S8 TL shots for 135 points.

I heard force weapons on a whole army was good... especially ones that require one test for a whole squad.

Sure, they got some aspects nerfed by 6th, but they also got some HUGE buffs.
Increased focus on psykers
Hull points mean vehicles die even more reliably with quantity of fire
Overwatch with heavy psycannons...
Increased focus on plasma makes the plasma syphon pretty darn strong, esp with a paladin list
demons got much, much stronger. I heard GK do well vs demons.

Definitely the most cheese in one army. Crons have a few units that are just WTF, but are generally ok. Just glad that GK players have this general opinion of their army so they play it less.

Anyone who plays GKs will say no. Anyone who has played against on of the spammy GK lists will say yes. Anyone who ever forgot what turn it was because of imbuing enough alcohol wont care.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Anyone who plays GKs will say no. Anyone who has played against on of the spammy GK lists will say yes. Anyone who ever forgot what turn it was because of imbuing enough alcohol wont care.

Just ignorant. While i dont admittedly own a GK army, my normal partner and i regularly swap armies to prep for tourneys so we can find weaknesses of armies by playing them. Therefore i get to play as GK a lot since he has a large GK army. Simply dismissing any argument against GK's high status in the army teiring as uninformed is silly.

zephoid wrote:

 pizzaguardian wrote:
where did it change hammerhand modifier applies beforex2?

pls reference

Read the power.

i know it does apply before the modifier. i am asking captain collius since his post has highlighted parts of him saying it applies before the x2 modifier.

And i don't agree on the deamon part. The new tzeentch daemons roll the floor with gk power armor units. Yes preferred enemy is nice but gk just doesn't put enough fire power to keep demons away, even with warp quake since you can still charge the next turn with 18" charge range.

Grey Knights = Better than Vanilla Marines, but pay more for it. Fine.

Space Wolves = Better than Vanilla Marines, but pay less for it. Broken.

Experiment 626 wrote:
6th edition only made GK's even more broken against Daemons.

In 5th, the only local GK player who ever took Strikes or Interceptors was a Draigowing player. Now, everyone and their mothers are taking Strikes because they're solid value for pts, are a Scoring unit and everyone else who can is spaming the updated Flamers.
Warp Quake is broken-as-feth gak and has caused me to yet again shelve my entire army becuase there's no physical way for me to even deploy!

20 Warp Quake dudes who get first turn is pretty much auto-loss for Daemons due to the massive area they can cover, especially when you spread them out their full 2" coherency.

Maybe in another 10 years when GK's get balanced I can play my poor Daemon army...

I agree what the warp quake business Vs. Daemons is a boat load of Cheddar......but hey there is no way GK are OP in any way.

The Stave only saves the stave model - if you have attackers in CC that aren't B2B with the stave model, their wounds cannot be allocated to the stave model... meaning that 2++ doesn't do a whole lot.