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Hello All, I'm planning on attending my first tournament next February and am trying to decide what army/list to take between my Skaven and OnG. Relevant Comp:

-No units larger than 40 models/450 points
-No more than 3 duplicate choices (regardless of kit)
-OnG may have two duplicate rares
- All Skaven rares 0-1
- Gutter Runners 0-1
- Doomrocket or Brass Orb
- No more than 12 PD (including mushrooms, warpstone tokens and stolen dice)

My potential OnG list is:

Orc Great Shaman - Lvl 4, Earthing Rod
Goblin Great Shaman - Lvl 4, Dispel Scroll

NG Big Boss- BSB, Standard of Discipline

40 NG with HW/Shields, Muso, Standard Bearer, Nets
40 NG with HW/Shields, Muso, Standard Bearer, Nets
40 NG with HW/Shields, Muso, Standard Bearer, Nets
5 Wolf Riders

Goblin Wolf Chariot
Goblin Wolf Chariot
Goblin Wolf Chariot
8 Trolls
Squig Herd - 24 Squigs/10 herders
Squig Herd - 24 Squigs/10 herders

Mangler Squig
Mangler Squig
Doom Diver
Doom Diver
Rock Lobba
Snotling Pump Wagon

The Skaven list is:

Grey Seer - Screaming Bell, Earthing Rod

Plague Priest - L2, Plague Furnace, Flail
Warlock Engineer - Doom Rocket

40 Skavenslaves
40 Skavenslaves
40 Skavenslaves
30 Stormvermin with FC, Storm Banner, Shields
1 Ratling Gun

9 Gutter Runners - Slings, Poison
28 Plague Monks, FC, Plague Banner

HPA
WLC
Doomwheel
Plagueclaw Catapult

I've considered dropping the Plagueclaw Catapult in order to bring my Warlock Engineer up to L1/2 and buy a dispel scroll/condenser.

Any thoughts anyone has on the lists is welcome. I have a pretty wide range of models for both armies so make any suggestion please. I have more experience with the OnG but enjoy playing both armies.

Cheers

Here are my two Warptokens:

- your BSB needs to (OnG) be better protected and (Skaven) exist). Even with two Unbreakable units, he is just So Useful.

- I'd consider switching out one or two of the Gobbos to shortbows to get s'more versatility.

- what are your plans for those Wolf Riders? It doesn't look like one re-director will do much, and you've already got A Lot of units.

- Wolf Chariots deliver less Impact Hits than Pump Wagons, point-for-point (even if you give the Wagon an Out-Rigga, Spikey Roller, and the Flappas). I'd stock up on those before I took Wolf Chariots.
Also, I'd take Wolf Chariots in units of 2, to save a little on space. It can make a big difference.

- it's pretty minor, but I'd rather have two Lobbas than two Doom Divers; with the Manglers, you've already got the High S-few Hits area well covered.

- 30/28 Stormvermin/Plague Monks is an awfully small number to push their respective engines. I'd consider dropping the Catapult and maybe the Doomwheel and/or Ratling Gun to get in more models.

- overall, they're solid lists. You've got a ton invested in magic in both; a bit more than I'd normally run, but maybe it works for you.

- your BSB needs to (OnG) be better protected and (Skaven) exist). Even with two Unbreakable units, he is just So Useful.

I've debated this time and time again, with the Goblins I find that if I don't have the leadership banner then I can't consistently make all the break tests the army requires me to make. This leaves me with a shield and light armour, which is not much of a defence at all. I'll give it a go with the Skaven though.

- I'd consider switching out one or two of the Gobbos to shortbows to get s'more versatility.

My worry here is that I lose my parry save/6+ which can be a big help when tarpitting for only 1 turn of shooting and a stand and shoot. I'll try it out though.

- what are your plans for those Wolf Riders? It doesn't look like one re-director will do much, and you've already got A Lot of units.

I agree that they are a bit purposeless. The issue though is that I can't make the 600 points on core without them given I can only have 3 units of Night Goblins with a maximum size of 40. If I take them out I have to completely re-structure my Core and army. I intend to use them as a cheap drop/redirector/even more chaff.

- Wolf Chariots deliver less Impact Hits than Pump Wagons, point-for-point (even if you give the Wagon an Out-Rigga, Spikey Roller, and the Flappas). I'd stock up on those before I took Wolf Chariots.
Also, I'd take Wolf Chariots in units of 2, to save a little on space. It can make a big difference.

Agreed that Pump Wagons are awesome, however I see them filling a different role due to random movement. They hit harder but are not as reliably fast on the charge as a chariot. I like to use Pump Wagons to stop charge reactions or alternatively in my back line if my opponent has ambushers that will try to get my warmachines or charge into my bunker. As for a unit of 2 my worry is panic tests caused by cannons blowing them up. Right now I try to space them out so Panic doesn't ruin me. I'll give it a go though as I have found it difficult to coordinate the sheer amount of chaff I'm putting down.

- it's pretty minor, but I'd rather have two Lobbas than two Doom Divers; with the Manglers, you've already got the High S-few Hits area well covered.

This is a really good point, I can handle knights but big uglies are a lot tougher.

- 30/28 Stormvermin/Plague Monks is an awfully small number to push their respective engines. I'd consider dropping the Catapult and maybe the Doomwheel and/or Ratling Gun to get in more models.

Good point, I don't see the Plagueclaw/Ratling Gun returning their points as well as anything else in the army.

- overall, they're solid lists. You've got a ton invested in magic in both; a bit more than I'd normally run, but maybe it works for you.

Cheers, I enjoy the magic phase so that tends to show through in my lists. Thanks for the advice and I'll give a few things a go.

With your Gobbo-BSB, he can become quite defensible with, say, a great weapon, Charmed Shield, and Talisman of Preservation.
And aren't your General and BSB usually together? So your troops would be Ld8 with re-rolls, normally? That's not incredibly reliable, but it's still better than Ld9 with re-rolls for half the game and Ld8 without re-rolls for the other.

As for shortbows versus shields, I've found that the 6+ save is rarely going to make much of a difference. One or two rounds of shooting may not seem to make much either, but the ability to reach out and pin-cushion units gives your Gobbos a whole new ability that they didn't have before. Your opponent will hesitate before he sends lone characters or small units into their arc of sight. Even if the bows do nothing more, that hesitation is worth giving up a few 6+ saves for me.

- if you dropped those Wolf Riders and added in Fanatics, that'd count towards your Core without breaking any comp. rules, right?