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This is from White Dwarf 365, june 2010, page 17.

This is what Dave Andrews had to say about the Leman Russ when they came out with the then new Leman Russ Battle Tank kit.

"What's interesting about the tanks of the 41st millenium", Dave says, leaning back in his chair and pointing to a nearby Leman Russ, "is that they're science fiction vehicles, but unlike any you'll see elsewhere. Take the Imperial Guard tanks. In truth they share more in common with a tank from the interwar period of the 20th Century than they do a modern battle tank or anything "futuristic". They have curiously misshapen hulls, riveted armour plates and absolutely no aesthetic concession to the technological advances we have nowadays. Imperial Guard tanks don't even have proper, sloped armour, and that's quite deliberate. Their design spawns from the thought process of what a fundamentally "backwards" tank would look like 38,000 years in the future in a place where technological understanding has collapsed and innovation is outlawed. The Imperium is archaic and backwards, clinging to the remnants of incredible technologies such as plasma cannons and las-weapons. The image is so exciting and unusual because these misunderstood innovations are embedded in fighting vehicles that make a modern tank look like a technical marvel."

Seems to me, all the complaints you have about the tank are designed that way on purpose

Did it occur to you that it is simply propaganda? something the Imperium would need in spades just to convince someone to get in that POS?

Every time I read fluff about the Leman Russ, it always sounds like they are being talked up to be more than they are by some faceless announcer, as if he must convince us of it's superiority in battle (like the Guard talks about EVERYTHING in their army) .

I think the fluff fits it fine.

I disagree, I think the tank perfectly matches the fluff, especially in light of the way the studio is designing them. They are supposed to look that way and work that way.

Remember, it isn't just one tank that is winning the wars and becoming the gods of war, its legions of tanks. thousands or maybe even millions of those things. That's what makes them a god of war. The fact that they can be made of pretty much anything, and can withstand so much punishment from the crew. Not that they are super survivable and super teched out.

I'm pretty sure it depends on what rules set you are talking about. If it is 4th edition, I challenge you to rip apart a falcon with an Eradicator. In 5th, close to the same...but in 6th, you are probably right.

But that isn't how Leman Russ tanks win wars. How many stories have you read where the tanks of the IG survive much of the fighting? Not many of them do.

It's the fact that the guard can field so damn many of them that is making them be the better tank. Sure, one on one the Leman Russ would probably get kicked to the curb if it had a design like that, but imagine 10,000 of them in one battle...while you've got maybe 100. That's how the guard uses Leman Russ tanks. Not as good tanks in any respect, it's just a numbers game to them.

Throw enough tanks at the problem until it goes away.

According to my old copy of Epic Space Marine Armies of the Imperium, A single regiment of the Imperial Guard typically consists of 10 to 40 Companies.

Each Company can also include up to 5 support units.

A Leman Russ Company consists of 10 Leman Russ tanks.

A Leman Russ support unit consists of 3 Leman Russ tanks.

So a single Leman Russ Company will have a minimum of 10 Leman Russ Tanks.

And a Maximum of 25 Leman Russ tanks.

So, since a Regiment typically has 10 to 40 Companies, you are talking 100 Leman Russ tanks minimum and 1000 Leman Russ tanks maximum.


Now look at the information for The Armageddon Wars on page 193 of your main rule book and see how many Regiments there were.

That's a LOT of tanks, even considering not every single Regiment was a tank Regiment.


Super Heavy Tank Companies consist of 3 Super Heavy Tanks.

And a Super Heavy support unit can consist of 1 Super Heavy Tank.

So that means a typical Super Heavy Tank Regiment would consist of 30 Super Heavy Tanks minimum and 320 Super Heavy Tanks maximum.

Remember though that when talking about the IG codex, they are not focusing on Tank Companies at all. This is due to the game not focusing on huge sweeping battles. Instead, it is mainly talking about IG companies. Where it does mention things at the Regiment level, it is again talking about a typical regiment.

IG Tank companies are not typical in the 41st millenium. Infantry companies are.

Super Heavy Regiments are rare in the extreme and most of the time you just get companies of super heavy vehicles. Or detachments. But it does show you what is possible with the IG. If they need to they can and do field super heavies in those numbers. It's just incredibly rare.

And you are right. A sensible commander would be backing up his tanks with troops...but we all know not all IG commanders are sensible. So they have maxed out the tank companies before. Usually when facing things like Gazzy's WAAAG. Or The Horus Heresy. Or the 13th Black Crusade. Those would be the times they would call in that level of firepower.

With this in mind, the organization given in the Epic Space Marine game fits very well with the way the IG would deal with that situation. Note that in the Armageddon Wars they have an IG force called the "Minervan Tank Legions" and list them as being 3 legions strong. While I can't say for certain, I am pretty sure those legions would include the regiments as they are laid out in the Epic game system, rather than the IG codex.

My apologies Lynata, when I said the IG codex isn't focusing on Tank Companies, I meant the current one. not the 2nd edition one. Also note, that the 2nd edition IG codex has exactly the same number of tanks per company that I mentioned the Epic Space Marine game has. 10 tanks per company.

The additional support detachments could also be tanks and do not have to be troops though normally they are.

Also note in the 5th edition codex on Super Heavy Tank Regiments, it says they they "rarely consist of more than a dozen super-heavy tanks."

Note that is says rarely. What does rarely mean in a galaxy of constant war with millions of battlefields? Rarely does also mean that there could very well be a few full strength regiments of 320 strong super heavy vehicles out there. But they are most certainly incredibly rare.

It says in the 5th ed IG codex that a Leman Russ requires 4 people to operate it, 6 if side sponsons are added.

It also says that regiments are typically raised with a strength of several thousand soldiers but the precise numbers can vary enormously.

So because the numbers vary enormously, you can see that we both have good points. There very well could be super large regiments of both super heavy vehicles, and Leman Russ tanks, and they can also be much lower in number. Both are very valid and do not contradict the fluff at all.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
I was talking about the Book I saw it in man. I was not saying it did not say otherwise in another book. 40k contradicts itself in almost every book written, I know it seems to in the few I own.

But yeah even at 100 or 180 MM, steel armor unslopped, riveted armor with such high sides are junk however ya look at it,Also the King tiger would murder a russ it seems to me.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
My apologies Lynata, when I said the IG codex isn't focusing on Tank Companies, I meant the current one. not the 2nd edition one. Also note, that the 2nd edition IG codex has exactly the same number of tanks per company that I mentioned the Epic Space Marine game has. 10 tanks per company.

The Current one however is the one that counts. It really does not matter what the old one may or may not have said on the matter.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:


Also note in the 5th edition codex on Super Heavy Tank Regiments, it says they they "rarely consist of more than a dozen super-heavy tanks."

Note that is says rarely. What does rarely mean in a galaxy of constant war with millions of battlefields? Rarely does also mean that there could very well be a few full strength regiments of 320 strong super heavy vehicles out there. But they are most certainly incredibly rare.

I disagree. It says rarely, meaning the standard is 12 or less. while you might get a rare regiment( made up of leftover ones I would guess) that might double that, you will not see a single regiment with 5 or 6 times that number, much less 320. 12 super heavy tanks are
a massive investment for a world.

And yet, in the current IG codex it states in the year 883.M41 that the Cadian 423rd spearhead the largest armoured assult since the battle for tallarn. Over eight thousand tank companies and thirty five super heavy detachments are annihilated during the near total destruction of a renegade Titan Legio at the planus steppes.

Sounds to me like there are more than just 12

I will concede on how many super heavies are in a regiment now because with Apocalypse they have changed the numbers. They can be anywhere from 9 to 12 strong now, but that also includes all of the supply and service vehicles. I was un aware of this because I really haven't read through the IG section of the Apocalypse book until about five minutes ago (I play Eldar in 40k so never had a need to) However, my numbers on Leman Russ tanks remain the same. There are 10 to a company. and a regiment can consist of anywhere from 3 to 20 companies. And when they form these companies they do not form them with troops. This way if the tanks rebel, they can't have the troop support they would need.

So IG Leman Russ Tank Regiments can consist of between 10 and 200 tanks before detachments are added.

I personally don't mind the look of the Leman Russ. I've always liked the look of the treads on it. And I don't really care what anyone else thinks about it, to me it's a cool looking tank. The tanks I can't stand are the Space Marine tanks. Talk about boring looking tanks..they fit the bill there.

On the subject of if there are other things than just regiments in the IG i refer you to the basic rule book of 6th edition. Page 193.

Notice that it does mention under the Imperial Guard things such as:

Arm. Command Guard.....5 companies

Elysian Drop Troops....14 Squadrons

Jopall Indentured Sqdns.....17 Battalions

Minervian Tank Legions....3 Legions

Zouvan Skirmishers.....4 Brigades

Take particular note of the Jopall Indentured Squadrons as they are named Squadrons but formed into Battalions.

They did the same thing again on page 231 of the Basic Rule Book for 6th edition for the Force Dispositions at the outset of the Thirteenth Black Crusade of Abaddon the Despoiler.

So, yes, the IG does have more organization than just what is written in the codex. As has been said in many codexes in the past, this particular codex will allow you to form the most commonly seen IG companies and regiments, not the entire organization of the IG.

That's the part you aren't understanding Hunterindarkness, they make it because they have always made it,. not because it is any good. Just like in the description of the Imperium in the new 6th edition rule book about how entire worlds in the Imperium are dedicated to making parts for things that don't exist anymore. Entire worlds spend generation after generation making parts for things like doors, toilets, bolt # 4546 that goes on a container for sugar...general stuff like that. And those things they are built for don't even exist in the Imperium anymore. So why would they ever stop making a tank like the leman russ design that they are using?

Personally you may not like the model GW has been producing for years and claiming it to be the Leman Russ but since it officially IS the leman russ, your options are to accept it as a Leman Russ, or don't buy it and get something else to represent your Russ. We know your choice is to get something else, but honestly, you have to accept like the Rhino, it isn't in scale very well. But that doesn't mean it isn't a Leman Russ.

And that's what I'm saying to you. It DOES match. It matches perfectly. the IG is in no way a unified force of guys. Look back at the different editions of the IG codex and you will see that nothing is unified. Recently GW has done a push on Cadian troops (probably because of the Eye of Terror campaign when they started to really push Cadia models as the most common guard models they made) but fluff wise the Cadians are only one of many many many different types of troops. It seems to me as if you are saying that the Leman Russ model design doesn't fit with the Cadians. I believe different.

In my opinion (and the opinion of the model designers) the Leman Russ is bad on purpose and the model they made to represent that fits exactly with how I see the Leman Russ tank. It is made from an STC design. STC designs pre date the Imperium. They are not meant to fit with any modern army. They are meant to fit with archaic armies from the past. This is on purpose.

Yes, the IG would use that tank design no matter what you keep trying to tell us. Do you know why? Because it is an STC design made in mass by the forge worlds. They are supplied to the IG in mass from many worlds and are not meant to be aesthetically pleasing. They are meant to die in droves. They are meant to line up, fire, die or survive return fire, then fire again. And when they die, they are replaced by more. And because the people in power tell them to use it.

The expense of producing them means nothing to an organization like the Imperium that uses slave labor as a work force and can mass produce on levels no one else in the galaxy can. With billions of worlds at the Imperiums disposal, losing a few generations of soldiers means nothing. Nor does losing a few million tanks. Thats why they can prolong wars for hundreds of years if need be.

If you are in the IG they don't care about your safety. They don't care about your ability to actually do or know anything other than shoot your weapon. They could care less about what you think about your survivability in a tank of that nature, climb in and do your job or be executed. That is how they work. That is why the IG use them.

The only thing I've been able to find on the Leman Russ power source comes from the old 3rd edition core rule book.

It says:

"Phaethon-pattern (type XV)
Leman Russ Battle-Tank

Contrary to previous designs, the Type XV Leman Russ uses only a single crystal battery generation unit. This has been designed with reference to newly re-discovered Standard Template Constructs on Gravis 5. This has enabled us to reconstruct the power generation units of our battle tanks in accordance with the more combat-effective designs that were in use during the Storming of Vrech. Improvements in the thaumic-resonance of the crystal orientation, and development in the growth patterns of Diaquartzoid matter, allows much more efficient energy storage and expulsion. In addition, the standard photolatic collectors have been replaced by much more sensitive panels able to accumulate and store energy down to fifty picocandela / second at standard Solar luminosity. The crystal battery unit provides only ancillary energy requirements, the bulk of the unit's operational powerload is still supplied by a fifty square kilo-cubits Adaptable Thermic Combustor engine (stricter measures concerning the use of non-dried vegetative-substances and foodstuffs as fuel are recommended).

Armour and armament are as Type XII-XIII with standard retro-fitted sponson mounts, energy re-chargers and ammunition supply feeds.

[Please note that the Damacles- pattern (Type XIV) Leman Russ has been withdrawn from active service due to dysfunctional filtration units]"


Since that is all I've been able to find on the subject, unless someone has something else about how a Leman Russ is powered and what it all means I don't think we can just blatantly assume that we really know ANYTHING about the Leman Russ and wether or not it is a workable tank in it's current form.