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I have had 3 battles so far with my Helbrute and he has been very disappointing. I love the model itself, but in battle, he dies so quickly. I tried having him with power fist and multi melta, and I tried Plasma cannon and power scourge. Nothing really seems to be the combo that works well. I just can't find the sweet spot. Is there one with the Helbrute? I have a second one that still needs priming and painting and I don't even know if i should bother.

Because Dreads blow in this edition, including everything that is Dread-like. They are dangerous, usally with decent weapons and a good BS skill. But with AV 12 (so plasma can pen them) and a 3-4 hull points means a single turn of fire usally blows them up.

Maybe the only way to make them work (specially without Drop Pods that Chaos got screwed on) is 3 of them, all armed the same. Your opponent probably can't take out all in one turn, and this also means everything else in your list is being ignored as well. I wouldn't use anything that outflanks or comes in from reserves using this tactic, as the less you have on the board means your opponent's fire is narrowed down to what you have on the board.

The above tactic probably works best for assault lists (Zerkers, Raptors, Bikes, ect) where it is mainly a zerg rush across the map where you plan on killing/tabling the enemy, not sitting back and shooting.

Saying Dreads blow is too much of a generalisation. AV12 Dreads are terrible, but the AV13 ones are still pretty damn dangerous since they are immune to S6 Krak and generally aren't easy to kill without Melta.

Chaos doesn't get AV 13 Ironclads, now do they. Dread-like was refering to the Maulerfiends and Forgefiends.

They all also have AV 10 rears, which means Bolters can glance them to death (say DSing Terminators). Lascannons, and Str 8+ templates also crush them. Who uses Krak nads? Melta bombs are for people serious about dealing with a vehicle/walker in CC. You don't count on krak nades for jack and squat. PFs and CFs use to be it, but now that Init is more important, a power-ax and Melta bomb for 15pts vs 25+pts for the PF/CF is the cheaper and better option.

No he had it right, all dreads suck for their cost really. Rifleman dreads are still the best choice due to their long range but now that none ap2 weapons suck against armor I would question their utility.

Dreads have never really been good. They are mostly cheap semi mobile fire support. The new daemon engines make the standard chaos dread a bit obsolete since both are pretty much just dreadnoughts but kitted out better for more specific roles, shooting or assault.

Its a shame they didn't let you build a regular dread with some of those weapon options. They wouldn't even have needed new models.

Yea at 125 for a mauler fiend I have no idea why you would take a dread. Well maybe in a mechzilla list lol. lets see:

125 MF
125 MF
125 MF
100HB
100HB
100HB
170HD
170HD
170HD

So 1185 for Nine AV12 Bots lol add some cheap scoring units and have at it. Lets say 2 Flying PD at 1850 1 at 1750 and a mess of cultists ha ha.

with my sw I like do drop pod in a dread behind an enemy landraider and las cannon its rear armour. Unfortunatly CSM is screwed on DP and why do that when there are oblits and havocs

Exalbaru wrote:with my sw I like do drop pod in a dread behind an enemy landraider and las cannon its rear armour. Unfortunatly CSM is screwed on DP and why do that when there are oblits and havocs

Why not multimelta?

I've been dreadclawing helbrutes to good success

If you don't dread claw, CC hell brutes stink. Shooty ones in cover though aren't bad at all. Reaper for 5 points, then a missile launcher lets you play pretend rifleman for a low points cost.

Is the Dreadclaw even any good with a Hellbrute in it? Doesn't it hang around the board for a turn doing nothing but being missile bait?

The basic hellbrute is 100 points. 100 POINTS! That is hilariously cheap to me. I'll just throw one in a list for laughs and if it does anything I'll be pleased. The thing will pretty much never hold up if the opponent decides he wants it dead, but there are really only two missions in which they'd want to focus their attentions on a 100 point, non-competitive hellbrute; Purge the Alien and Big Guns Never Tire.

So I personally don't think they're that bad. For 100 points you get a bs4(?) multimelta, a powerfist that swings at initiative, AV12, and the chance to get some sort of shooting or assault frenzy if you get glanced/penned and survive.

They're not terrible for the points, just don't expect much out of a single, cheap model. And that's the way I'd go with them. Cheap as possible. Add any extras in and you're putting too many eggs into a squishy basket.

Yes they are cheap, but let's see what else can be gotten with those 100 points:

-A substantial chunk of cultists, which are scoring and can crouch in area terrain with 3+ saves.

-Four to five chaos bikers, which are tough, mobile and good harassers, not to mention easy to get where you need them for mass assaults.

-A basic termicide unit with 2+ saves and special weapons

-Three Chaos spawns, meaning 9 T6 wounds (all but guaranteed to take in more heavy fire than the Hellbrute) to escort a Lord on a bike or juggernaut.

The Hellbrute, a bit like the Chaos Land Raider, suffers from being a weird hybrid. Half of it wants to hang back and shoot from safety, half of it wants to charge forward and punch faces in. The problem is, it can't really be optimized to do just one of those things well: it has no double-cannon build, and when made for CC is has no good means of delivery.

HB don't draw fire in big guns as they are elites. They also don't compete with anything other then terminators IMO so I don't see the hate. 3 for 300 and just run them forward along side your precious bikes and spawn and profit. Termicide sucks now that they nerfed icons so I wouldn't bring three upgraded terminators just to watch them scatter off and do nothing.

Sephyr you miss the point, yes there are other useful things you can buy, but that doesn't invalidate the HB. Those cheap cultists can't survive without actual threats around them and a cheap HB is a good deterrent for it's cost.

Comparing the HB to anything from FA is silly to me, any good player will max out FA and HS first anyway.

 Red Corsair wrote:
HB don't draw fire in big guns as they are elites. They also don't compete with anything other then terminators IMO so I don't see the hate. 3 for 300 and just run them forward along side your precious bikes and spawn and profit. Termicide sucks now that they nerfed icons so I wouldn't bring three upgraded terminators just to watch them scatter off and do nothing.

Sephyr you miss the point, yes there are other useful things you can buy, but that doesn't invalidate the HB. Those cheap cultists can't survive without actual threats around them and a cheap HB is a good deterrent for it's cost.

Comparing the HB to anything from FA is silly to me, any good player will max out FA and HS first anyway.

Termicide isn't terrible, you just need to run combi-plasma and chain fist instead of combi-melta. Bikers are cheaper and better so you can get your cheap meltaguns on those now. Three terminators dropping in on someone will ruin their day and they are great support for daemon allies if you take some. First wave daemons plus some terminators and some turbo boosting bikers can put a lot of units in your opponent's deployment zone. Not to mention you can rhino rush even better now with an extra 6" in the shooting phase.

Termicide is MUCH less affective. 122 for 3w with your loadout and they can scatter a great deal. Now that armor is less used those shots even at RF range will get you what, 4 marines, thats 60 points, now your unit dies and your down. 3 man termicide is way worse then in 5th. Now DS 6 or more of them to force your opponent to deal with them sure but thats much more expensive then the brute. People are still treating HB like they were in the 4th edition book. Now they are dirt cheap and don't fry your own stuff.

I actually like the hellbrutes, mostly because their raging isn't terrible, though they do have to shoot what caused them to be damaged (want to shoot that landraider with your multi-melta? Sorry, that chimera over there glanced you).

However, I do find that they ARE pretty darn cheap for 100 points and while they can be handled, they HAVE to be handled. Enemies getting more hits in cc with krak grenades is a bit of a nerf, but taking two or 3 to help support squads is handy.

Plus, I find I have a severe lacking of AP2 in my army in close combat. Power fists seem to be the only way to really get it and it's expensive to put that on champions - champions that are likely to die. A helbrute charging in along with a squad of marines gives a bit of AP2 punch against things like terminators or certain characters [whom you can avoid having to challenge out of the combat by moving thus that your champion will be unengaged come the fight subphase].

However, as an alternative, I've been running Sonic Dreadnoughts with my Emperor's Children. The data sheet is in Imperial Armour 3 I believe, if not 2, and while that book has a data sheet for an apocalypse formation, within the formation are the rules for sonic dreadnoughts. They are a nice platform for a blastmaster without needing to take a noisemarine squad of 10 men, and can take doomsirens as well.

A good rule of thumb for large units is:

1 big box is a target
2 big boxes are a tactic
3 big boxes are a strategy (because with this many points you had better have a strategy)

You never take 1 Land Raider, you take 2-3. This provides target saturation, forcing your opponent to either split their fire which weakens it across all of your units, or focusing their fire on one "big box" which allows the rest of your forces to move unopposed.

In the case of Dreads and Dread-like things, you have to take them in numbers if you wish them to survive walking across a battlefield. The alternative is dropping them on target (if you can), which only improves their time in combat slightly if you are only dropping one.

A corollary to this rule of thumb is not all big boxes are equal. You can take only one Land Raider if you take 1-2 other units that are just as big/scary. One Helbrute can survive just fine if it is not the biggest target on the board.

SJ