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Does anyone know how many men were in the Space Wolves at the start of the Heresy?

How many Marines they had at the start of heresy?

It could be anywhere from 10 to 50.000 Astartes. They had enough Marines to crush Thousand Sons ( 10.000 Astartes strong Legion ) and to help stabilize the Imperium afterwards.

Maybe 30,000-ish?

which leaves it very open to the numers, as the sons of Russ, even when outnumbered, will always be victorious

I say 20 000 to 30 000 max....

Cool. So if we go with 30,000, that's about 5-6000 battle-brothers in a Great Company.

Betrayal has changed the scale that pre-heresy Legions, however, operate on.

The main traitor legions, as described in that book, are from 100k to 500k, and while due to the instability of Space Wolves geneseed, I wouldn't imagine they're one of the larger legions, but they could very well be into the 100k range, though that seems not entirely likely.

Of course, it's worth considering that Heresy era Space Wolves and "modern" Space Wolves wouldn't be radically different in size; they were never broken down into 1000 marine chapters, after all.

Exalbaru wrote:
which leaves it very open to the numers, as the sons of Russ, even when outnumbered, will always be victorious

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_of_Fenris#.UOE2b5Ao6Uk


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Betrayal has changed the scale that pre-heresy Legions, however, operate on.

The main traitor legions, as described in that book, are from 100k to 500k, and while due to the instability of Space Wolves geneseed, I wouldn't imagine they're one of the larger legions, but they could very well be into the 100k range, though that seems not entirely likely.

Of course, it's worth considering that Heresy era Space Wolves and "modern" Space Wolves wouldn't be radically different in size; they were never broken down into 1000 marine chapters, after all.

The largest of all the Great Companies, of which there are 12 in service (13th doesn't count), numbers 200. So at best, we're talking a chapter numbering a little over 2,000.

The Thousand Sons are the confirmed smallest legion, at 10,000, so the legion should be much larger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
I say 20 000 to 30 000 max....

This would be my personal estimate as well.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


The largest of all the Great Companies, of which there are 12 in service (13th doesn't count), numbers 200. So at best, we're talking a chapter numbering a little over 2,000.

The Thousand Sons are the confirmed smallest legion, at 10,000, so the legion should be much larger.

Which is one of the more inconsistent piece of fluff out there; the legion was never broken up, yet they've been reduced in strength by 90% or more, yet still retain independent fleets, armories and so on for each great company? It's not like the Wolves would have voluntarily reduced their strength to keep the High Lords or Girlyman happy.

But then this is 40k.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Which is one of the more inconsistent piece of fluff out there; the legion was never broken up, yet they've been reduced in strength by 90% or more, yet still retain independent fleets, armories and so on for each great company? It's not like the Wolves would have voluntarily reduced their strength to keep the High Lords or Girlyman happy.

But then this is 40k.

Are you under the impression that they lost no Wolves during the battle of Prospero?

Both legions were decimated by that battle, not just the Thousand Sons.

And it would have been very stupid for them not to have reduced their strength, because Russ would have to be an idiot to draw Guilliman's ire.

Or maybe the 13th Company was 20,000 strong!

Actually, the Burning of Prospero was pretty deadly. And the Wolves are supposed to have been cut in half, with the Wolf Brothers getting half of the Fleet, Armoury, etc., so when that went down the toilet it was pretty bad. And the Battle for Gangava and the Fang was nasty too.

But still it must be at least 10,000, as the Thousand Sons were that strength, and the smallest Legion...

Answer is simple - they lost most of the legion because they spearheaded the Great Scouring,in which they were the craziest (mostly because they were pissed not being on Terra when Empy fell)...and that's a FACT
Guiliman, who is that ? Is that the guy who has power of logistics? Kidding...
Ooo,his ire? LOL
Now seriously - since Russ was one of the Guiliman's "dauntless few", I' think compromise was in play....

Oh that's right, Know No Fear made Russ one of Guilliman's little buddies. Rather amusing, IMO.

In the latest wolf codex, the wolves have 12 companies that have around 100-200 active marines. So currently the SW are one of the largest chapters around, with perhaps 2x the codex chapters size. They lost one company, the 13th, and were split once afterwards.

So at minimum 10k.

If we assume the companies were a bit more aggressive recruiting back in the days of the heresy, 130k (13 companies x 1000 marines each) would be a good guess.

Remember, Russ and his legion eliminated one primarch and his legion, and with the aid of the sisters of silence took out Magnus and his as well.

The Space Wolves were never a large Legion, the lore tells us, so they weren't as numerous as the Boys in Blue - upper limit of ~100,000.
They were more than the Thousand Sons - lower limit 10,000.
Average it out, 55,000?

After the Scouring of Prospero and battling their way through the insurgents with the Lion and his Angels, the two of them plus their Legions were still numerous enough to scare Horus and all 4?5? (more?) Traitor Legions present at the Siege of Terra into Horus' last, desperate gambit of letting the Emp on board his ship.

Also, Russ afraid of Guilliman? HAHAHAHAHa. hah. heh.
Haven't laughed that hard in a good while.

Edit: These numbers uses the numbers presented in the Horus Heresy series which I personally loathe. If, like me, you prefer old-school background, divide all numbers by 10.

Guilliman might not be capable of besting Leman Russ in a brawl, but in a war, with the full backing of the rest of the Imperium, the Ultramarines would unceremoniously crush the Space Wolves, be real here.

I think the...shifting nature of the exact character of the SW is part of the problem currently.

The HH series has kind of upset the traditional image of Russ's relationship with the other primarchs, and there's a lot of disagreement over their position in the modern imperium; their current dex portrays them as loyal to the idea of the Imperium, just not the Imperium's leadership, but I've seen reference to them being the High Lords' executioners and, pardon the pun, lapdogs.

Furthermore, the current dex portrays them as, basically, Imperial berserkers, while BL products and HH stories describe them as being much more tactical and strategically competent.

I don't particularly care for Russ or his legion, nor the modern chapter, but I would like there to be some kind of final decision on what exactly the wolves are.

I still think, however, their modern size should be larger, or the fluff re-written. Simply put, 100-200 marines with autonomous fleets, forges and such is silly. What kind of fleet can 200 marines operate? A single strike cruiser with a pair of escorts? As for their forges, what are they, a pair of techmarines, and then there's the matter of vehicles and their crews.

But then I'm of the opinion that the current SW dex has some of the worst fluff in existence, it's nonsensical.

To be more on topic, the wolves aren't really a galaxy defining force on their own; they were the Emperor's lapdogs, happily obeying their master's calls at whim, but their power and tactical acumen was well below many other legions. The Smurfs are regularly referred to as being one of the largest legions prior to the heresy, and by far the largest after it, hence the vast majority of 2nd founding chapters being of UM descent. Russ wouldn't stand a chance solo against the Ultramarines, or really most of the legions; the Thousand Sons were the absolute smallest, and even they reaped an enormous toll of space puppies.

People, I think, are a little too fond of the viking theme, and assume the rule of cool truly does trump everything.

Bran Dawri wrote:
The Space Wolves were never a large Legion, the lore tells us, so they weren't as numerous as the Boys in Blue - upper limit of ~100,000.
Also, Russ afraid of Guilliman? HAHAHAHAHa. hah. heh.
Haven't laughed that hard in a good while.

Me too
Fact: Russ can't be bullied, on that I'm certain, because no one is more headstrong than him....I mean he punched the Emperor after he was separating him from Horus :-)
I'm not denying Guiliman and the rest of the chapters would kill them...but Guiliman isn't mad attacking SW also....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I think the...shifting nature of the exact character of the SW is part of the problem currently.


To be more on topic, the wolves aren't really a galaxy defining force on their own; they were the Emperor's lapdogs, happily obeying their master's calls at whim, but their power and tactical acumen was well below many other legions. The Smurfs are regularly referred to as being one of the largest legions prior to the heresy, and by far the largest after it, hence the vast majority of 2nd founding chapters being of UM descent. Russ wouldn't stand a chance solo against the Ultramarines, or really most of the legions; the Thousand Sons were the absolute smallest, and even they reaped an enormous toll of space puppies.

People, I think, are a little too fond of the viking theme, and assume the rule of cool truly does trump everything.

Keep personal comments toward other members friendly, thanks. This is part of Rule #1, a requirement on Dakka. -Mannahnin
They were the third placed legion based on conquered worlds (Horus, Lion, Russ) IN THAT ORDER
So if you don't have any facts don't post biased opinions from one book

Keep personal comments toward other members friendly, thanks. This is part of Rule #1, a requirement on Dakka. -Mannahnin

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Guilliman might not be capable of besting Leman Russ in a brawl, but in a war, with the full backing of the rest of the Imperium, the Ultramarines would unceremoniously crush the Space Wolves, be real here.

Who says Guilliman would have the backing of the rest of the Imperium? That's one of the things that make Russ an actual good guy - he backed down. Not because he was afraid of Guilliman, his Legion or anyone else - but because another civil war (which it would be - Russ wasn't the only one who opposed Guilliman's ideas) would destroy whatever hope of survival Mankind had left. He didn't back down very far - he just said "screw you guys, I'm taking my dudes home. We'll protect our sector and our interests, but for the rest, you and your stupid book can get stuffed", which makes him not just a good guy, but one with some backbone as well.

Void__Dragon wrote:Furthermore, the current dex portrays them as, basically, Imperial berserkers, while BL products and HH stories describe them as being much more tactical and strategically competent.

One does not exclude the other. To paraphrase the 3rd edition 'dex: Space Wolves are not mindless berserks like the Blood Angels. Their headstrong and volatile nature tends to get them into fights, but once there they fight with a controlled fury and ferocity that makes them even more dangerous. (Also, they're based on Vikings, who were ferocious, used berserks, and were among, if not the most competent soldiers of their time - there's a reason they terrorised Europe pretty much uncontested for centuries. They were *not* stupid.)

Void__Dragon wrote:But then I'm of the opinion that the current SW dex has some of the worst fluff in existence, it's nonsensical.

Sadly, in some aspects, I must agree with you (I'm looking at you, TWC!), although I don't think it's quite as bad as deepstriking Land Raiders and guys carving their names in Daemon Primarchs' hearts or factions with the ability to blow up stars at will...

As for the rest, I'm not going to get in a shouting match, but I loathe the direction my beloved Wolves are headed. It seems even GW has forgotten, but they're not called Space Wolves because they're AD&D lycanthropes in space, but because the Vikings were called the Wolves of the sea .
They're Vikings in space. More correctly, they're the archetypical "noble savage" in space, who doesn't care about politics or consequences, but who will do the right thing, come Hell or high water.

Bran Dawri wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:Furthermore, the current dex portrays them as, basically, Imperial berserkers, while BL products and HH stories describe them as being much more tactical and strategically competent.

One does not exclude the other. To paraphrase the 3rd edition 'dex: Space Wolves are not mindless berserks like the Blood Angels. Their headstrong and volatile nature tends to get them into fights, but once there they fight with a controlled fury and ferocity that makes them even more dangerous. (Also, they're based on Vikings, who were ferocious, used berserks, and were among, if not the most competent soldiers of their time - there's a reason they terrorised Europe pretty much uncontested for centuries. They were *not* stupid.)

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_of_Fenris#.UOE2b5Ao6Uk

traitorous heritics!

At least some of the fleet got away

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Furthermore, the current dex portrays them as, basically, Imperial berserkers, while BL products and HH stories describe them as being much more tactical and strategically competent.

...

I still think, however, their modern size should be larger, or the fluff re-written. Simply put, 100-200 marines with autonomous fleets, forges and such is silly. What kind of fleet can 200 marines operate? A single strike cruiser with a pair of escorts? As for their forges, what are they, a pair of techmarines, and then there's the matter of vehicles and their crews.

There's always been an issue that the average crew size of a IN cruiser's gun turret is larger then a full chapter's strength. Most people rationalize that 100 marines per company means 100 boots on the ground, not including support staff. This isn't just an issue with SW, but all the chapters in general. The fluff is written by someone who really didn't understand military logistics, and we've been subject to numerous conflicting rationalizations ever since.

Anyway, the current codex and BL fluff shows them as not berserkers. They conquer the bloodlust and berserker impulses by overcoming the canis helix, and only put on a show of being stupid barbarians to get people to underestimate them. Magnus makes a point to mention that he isn't fooled by Russ's playacting in one of the books.

Back on topic, the UM are 450k strong, and are the largest, and if Magnus is the smallest at 10k, then you have your bounds. But it is hinted that the UM absorbed the remnants of two other legions to swell to that size, and were around 300k prior. The Luna Wolves were about 350k prior to the purge and were also one of the larger legions, so 350k seems the upper limit for a legion without any other issues.

Durandal wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Furthermore, the current dex portrays them as, basically, Imperial berserkers, while BL products and HH stories describe them as being much more tactical and strategically competent.

...

I still think, however, their modern size should be larger, or the fluff re-written. Simply put, 100-200 marines with autonomous fleets, forges and such is silly. What kind of fleet can 200 marines operate? A single strike cruiser with a pair of escorts? As for their forges, what are they, a pair of techmarines, and then there's the matter of vehicles and their crews.

There's always been an issue that the average crew size of a IN cruiser's gun turret is larger then a full chapter's strength. Most people rationalize that 100 marines per company means 100 boots on the ground, not including support staff. This isn't just an issue with SW, but all the chapters in general. The fluff is written by someone who really didn't understand military logistics, and we've been subject to numerous conflicting rationalizations ever since.

Anyway, the current codex and BL fluff shows them as not berserkers. They conquer the bloodlust and berserker impulses by overcoming the canis helix, and only put on a show of being stupid barbarians to get people to underestimate them. Magnus makes a point to mention that he isn't fooled by Russ's playacting in one of the books.

Back on topic, the UM are 450k strong, and are the largest, and if Magnus is the smallest at 10k, then you have your bounds. But it is hinted that the UM absorbed the remnants of two other legions to swell to that size, and were around 300k prior. The Luna Wolves were about 350k prior to the purge and were also one of the larger legions, so 350k seems the upper limit for a legion without any other issues.

The whole UM absorbing other legions was debunked by the BL author and he says he wishes he had never wrote it.

As for the Wolves, Battle of the Fang gives us a firm number on the size of the Legion after the HH/Great Scouring and after the creation and ultimate failure of the Wolf Brothers successor chapter. IIRC, minus the decimated great company that defended Fenris and a great company left on Gangava to finish operations there, the Wolves present at the "funeral" was over 2200.

Now for some reason there are people that believe that in the 9000yrs since the Battle of the Fang happened, the Wolves have not replenished any of their numbers from the Wolf Brothers split and from the losses at the Battle of the Fang. They insist on using the line in the current codex regarding Ragnar's great company being the largest company behind only Logan's. However they disregard the fluff written as his company boasting over 200 "battle-hardened" members when there is no way that Blood Claws, Sky Claws, or Swift Claw bikers could ever be considered "battle-hardened".

I personally would put current numbers between 4-5k, right about post HH and Great Scouring and right before Wolf Brothers successor split off.

Also we can't forget the Space Wolves "lost companies". It isn't just the 13th we have floating around out there. While not a common occurrence as far as we know, there is the chance we have pretty substantial numbers that have gone their own way for a bit.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Me too
Fact: Russ can't be bullied, on that I'm certain, because no one is more headstrong than him....I mean he punched the Emperor after he was separating him from Horus :-)
I'm not denying Guiliman and the rest of the chapters would kill them...but Guiliman isn't mad attacking SW also....

Are you suggesting that Leman Russ would bring his legion into certain doom over a book Guilliman wrote? I mean, it isn't so much Leman Russ being afraid of Guilliman, it's a matter of not being a frothing idiot, which he wasn't, seeing as he conceded and did split his chapter/create successor chapters.

And you are not very smart with your comments and I guess you are younger player/hater...
They were the third placed legion based on conquered worlds (Horus, Lion, Russ) IN THAT ORDER
So if you don't have any facts don't post biased opinions from one book

I can't really recall what Index Astartes states, but I know the Space Marines codex states the Ultramarines had the most victories short of the Luna Wolves, and I know varying BL books seem to honestly imply a not too signifigant difference between most of the legions in terms of compliances/conquers (Luna Wolves 1st, Word Bearers last, is all that is definite).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:
Who says Guilliman would have the backing of the rest of the Imperium? That's one of the things that make Russ an actual good guy - he backed down. Not because he was afraid of Guilliman, his Legion or anyone else - but because another civil war (which it would be - Russ wasn't the only one who opposed Guilliman's ideas) would destroy whatever hope of survival Mankind had left. He didn't back down very far - he just said "screw you guys, I'm taking my dudes home. We'll protect our sector and our interests, but for the rest, you and your stupid book can get stuffed", which makes him not just a good guy, but one with some backbone as well.

The fact that he had essentially become the de facto leader of the Imperium's military forces post-Heresy, lol?

Yeah, there's no evidence for Leman Russ's reaction towards the Codex Astartes, last I checked, but he did, in fact, relinquish his legion to have successor chapters made.

One chapter, that did not succeed. So in the almost 10,000yrs since, where have all the Wolves gone?

Even though I didn't particularly enjoy Battle of The Fang, there was a subplot in there that seemed to suggest that due to the Wolf Brothers incident, the space wolves were quite concerned about growing significantly in size...

However, if everything goes according to plan, they would have indeed reconsidered their numbers, successor chapters and the like.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
One chapter, that did not succeed. So in the almost 10,000yrs since, where have all the Wolves gone?

Killed by Thousand Sons at Prospero and in the following years in the Heresy?

Yeah wolves lost alot of marines at prospero if what i heard was right excuse me if im not havent personaly read the book.. the wolves had ALOT of help and would have died if they didnt have assistance against the smallest legion no less.