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So I just finished getting over a game where I felt like I was being rule-cheesed to the max by my opponent. Particularly pricking to me was his definition of a Rhino and it's occupants' ability to fire out of the Rhino.

The situation was that he parked his Rhinos (with a Tac Squad w/ PlasCannon) behind another line of Rhinos and Predators. From there, I had no line of sight to shoot his Rhino, but when it came to his turn, he measured the passenger's weapon ranges from the front two hatches. Now, I let it slide on the day since the rules were unclear, but I've since read some other Dakka threads and I know that the consensus is that the firing hatch is intended to be the big, rear, passenger hatch. However, my question is that with his Rhino behind his other Rhino and Predator, do his passengers have a line of sight to shoot out?

The implicit claim he made was that since they were firing out of the top hatch, they acted as a sort of invisible turret like how we measure LOS for a vehicle weapon from its mount down its barrel.

1. Is there any actual official clarification from GW that the firing hatch for a Rhino is indeed the big rear passenger hatch?
2. Can his passengers "fire over" another vehicle because of this hatch, and I can't fire back at it due to LOS?

Where EXACTLY (not just horizontal, but vertical axis too aka how high up) on any transport with a firing point (e.g. the Rhino and Chimera both have huge hatches) is LOS and range measured from?

SM codex, page 76:

"Two models can fire from the Rhino's top hatch"


As for question number two: you use TLOS. If you can see it, you can see it.

Polecat wrote:
SM codex, page 76:

"Two models can fire from the Rhino's top hatch"


As for question number two: you use TLOS. If you can see it, you can see it.

I know both points, and neither answers my questions.

There are three top hatches on the Rhino, two front hatches (in real life, crew hatches) and one large rear hatch. Is there any official wording that only the large rear hatch can be used as a firing point.

So technically if I'm measuring TLOS from a FLAT surface (the hatch) on a Rhino, passengers can only fire on a horizontal plane and upwards (i.e. flyers) due to the intervening hull of the Rhino. Somehow, I don't think this sounds right...

There is no current clarification on just how it is supposed to work. IIRC, they've said in previous FAQs that LOS is drawn from 'just above' the hatch... which is obviously open to some amount of interpretation.

A. The rule is "hatch", not "hatches'. The rhino has one large hatch over the crew compatment, and two circular bits at the front over the driver's area, which can be modeled as hatches or as a cupola mounting the storm bolter, a hunter-killer missile, a dirge caster or a havoc launcher.

Given that "hatch" singular is used, and given that the points at the front are sometimes simply weapon mounts, the only firing hatch they can possibly be referring to is the large rectangular one.

B. There's presently no rule defining how far above the hatch you determine LOS from; in the past they said "just above", but I don't believe any of the current FAQs or the current rulebook say anything about it. Therefore you might be justified in judging that LOS out of the hatch is quite restricted, and the passengers unable to draw LOS to anything lower than the level of the Rhino's hull. In practice, I never see that strict an interpretation used; generally folks are fine playing that the passengers can see/shoot over the edge of the hull, although not over raised things like those forward cupolas.

If your opponent wants to play that he can draw LOS from a given part of a vehicle, you are equally able to draw LOS to that part of a vehicle. You can draw LOS to any part of a vehicle's hull, which just excludes gun barrels, antennae, and decorative items like banner poles. Passengers in an open-topped transport can measure LOS from anywhere on the hull, and there are no Fire Points where are located on any of those untargetable areas.

Hm. Since firing from a vehicle is measured from the vehicle's weapon mount down its barrel for LOS, is it a possibility that sometimes, a weapon can fire at an opponent with a clear shot while the vehicle itself claims a cover save from the target it is shooting at because of the more than 25% obscured rule?

 Enigwolf wrote:
Hm. Since firing from a vehicle is measured from the vehicle's weapon mount down its barrel for LOS, is it a possibility that sometimes, a weapon can fire at an opponent with a clear shot while the vehicle itself claims a cover save from the target it is shooting at because of the more than 25% obscured rule?

It's not just a possibility, it is a common occurrence. Put a tank behind Aegis Defence Line and this is pretty much quaranteed to happen.

Luide wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Hm. Since firing from a vehicle is measured from the vehicle's weapon mount down its barrel for LOS, is it a possibility that sometimes, a weapon can fire at an opponent with a clear shot while the vehicle itself claims a cover save from the target it is shooting at because of the more than 25% obscured rule?

It's not just a possibility, it is a common occurrence. Put a tank behind Aegis Defence Line and this is pretty much quaranteed to happen.

What if it's literally just a gun barrel sticking out from behind cover. Technically, then the only thing that's left visible to be shot at is the gun barrel, but that cannot be targeted for purposes of LOS to a tank...

 Enigwolf wrote:
Hm. Since firing from a vehicle is measured from the vehicle's weapon mount down its barrel for LOS, is it a possibility that sometimes, a weapon can fire at an opponent with a clear shot while the vehicle itself claims a cover save from the target it is shooting at because of the more than 25% obscured rule?

That's in no way exclusive to vehicles. Every model has the potential to huddle up in cover and fire at enemy models in the clear.

 Enigwolf wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Hm. Since firing from a vehicle is measured from the vehicle's weapon mount down its barrel for LOS, is it a possibility that sometimes, a weapon can fire at an opponent with a clear shot while the vehicle itself claims a cover save from the target it is shooting at because of the more than 25% obscured rule?

It's not just a possibility, it is a common occurrence. Put a tank behind Aegis Defence Line and this is pretty much quaranteed to happen.

What if it's literally just a gun barrel sticking out from behind cover. Technically, then the only thing that's left visible to be shot at is the gun barrel, but that cannot be targeted for purposes of LOS to a tank...

That's pretty close to impossible, because while the gun barrel is exempted as a target, the weapon/weapon mounting are not. So if you're physically able to point the weapon at the target and draw LOS down the barrel, the target drawing LOS back down that same line will have LOS to the weapon/weapon mounting.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

Luide wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Hm. Since firing from a vehicle is measured from the vehicle's weapon mount down its barrel for LOS, is it a possibility that sometimes, a weapon can fire at an opponent with a clear shot while the vehicle itself claims a cover save from the target it is shooting at because of the more than 25% obscured rule?

It's not just a possibility, it is a common occurrence. Put a tank behind Aegis Defence Line and this is pretty much quaranteed to happen.

What if it's literally just a gun barrel sticking out from behind cover. Technically, then the only thing that's left visible to be shot at is the gun barrel, but that cannot be targeted for purposes of LOS to a tank...

That's pretty close to impossible, because while the gun barrel is exempted as a target, the weapon/weapon mounting are not. So if you're physically able to point the weapon at the target and draw LOS down the barrel, the target drawing LOS back down that same line will have LOS to the weapon/weapon mounting.

Got it. So in this instance, where he argued that he can measure weapon LOS from one model's height above the Rhino since the model is firing from the top hatch, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that I can fire back at it, right?

There is no support for arguing "one models height" neither in rules nor in fluff.

HWIPI is measure slightly (~1 cm) above the top (=rear) hatch. Ie slightly less than half a model.

And yes, it would be reasonable to state that if he can measure LOS from above rhino, same should apply in reverse.

Luide wrote:
And yes, it would be reasonable to state that if he can measure LOS from above rhino, same should apply in reverse.

Except the rules do not say that.

They work off of true line of sight, if you can not see the vehicle, or any model, you can not fire at that target.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:
And yes, it would be reasonable to state that if he can measure LOS from above rhino, same should apply in reverse.

Except the rules do not say that.

They work off of true line of sight, if you can not see the vehicle, or any model, you can not fire at that target.

And vice versa. By TLOS you can't trace from a point above the vehicle. If they're already breaking that rule, it's reasonable to trace back to that same point to return fire.

Which is what the thread is addressing -HYWPI not RAW.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:
And yes, it would be reasonable to state that if he can measure LOS from above rhino, same should apply in reverse.

Except the rules do not say that.

They work off of true line of sight, if you can not see the vehicle, or any model, you can not fire at that target.

And vice versa. By TLOS you can't trace from a point above the vehicle. If they're already breaking that rule, it's reasonable to trace back to that same point to return fire.

Which is what the thread is addressing -HYWPI not RAW.

Except the rules allow you to trace line of sight from just above the hatch when firing.

so I would play it that way, as that is what the rules tell us to do.

Do what we do, we place the models firing in the rhino on top of the rhino for shooting and assume they duck back in once firing is over. sadly this doesnt address shoot back at the rhino but it lets you see where the units can see from the top hatch.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Luide wrote:
And yes, it would be reasonable to state that if he can measure LOS from above rhino, same should apply in reverse.

Except the rules do not say that.

They work off of true line of sight, if you can not see the vehicle, or any model, you can not fire at that target.

And vice versa. By TLOS you can't trace from a point above the vehicle. If they're already breaking that rule, it's reasonable to trace back to that same point to return fire.

Which is what the thread is addressing -HYWPI not RAW.

Except the rules allow you to trace line of sight from just above the hatch when firing.

so I would play it that way, as that is what the rules tell us to do.

No they don't. I already pointed out that the rules tell us no such thing. Insaniak's reference is (at this point) to an older, out of print instruction from GW.

While in practice most folks play that it's okay to draw LOS from just above the hatch, that's a courtesy, and as such demands reciprocity that the same point can also be targeted in return.

Okay it sounded like the measure from just above was still there.

If it is not in place, I would allow 2 way line of sight to and from just above the hatch.