Oliver Stone (and Historian Peter Kuznick) "US has become an Orwellian state"

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**KalashnikovMarine**

http://rt.com/news/oliver-stone-us-orwellian-022/

RT’s Abby Martin in the program Breaking the Set discusses the Showtime film series and book titled The Untold History of the United States co-authored by Oliver Stone and Peter Kuznick.

Americans are living in an Orwellian state argue Academy Award-winning director Oliver Stone and historian Peter Kuznick, as they sit down with RT to discuss US foreign policy and the Obama administration’s disregard for the rule of law.

Both argue that Obama is a wolf in sheep’s clothing and that people have forgiven him a lot because of the “nightmare of the Bush presidency that preceded him.”

“He has taken all the Bush changes he basically put them into the establishment, he has codified them,” Stone told RT. “It is an Orwellian state. It might not be oppressive on the surface, but there is no place to hide. Some part of you is going to end up in the database somewhere.”

According to Kuznick, American citizens live in a fish tank where their government intercepts more than 1.7 billion messages a day. “That is email, telephone calls, other forms of communication.”

RT: It took both of you almost five years to produce this series. And in it you have a chapter called Obama: Management of a Wounded Empire. You give a harsh critique of the Obama administration. What in your eyes has been the most troubling aspect of his presidency, Oliver?

Oliver Stone: I think under the disguise of sheep’s clothing he has been a wolf. That because of the nightmare of the Bush presidency that preceded him, people forgave him a lot. He was a great hope for change. The color of his skin, the upbringing, the internationalism, the globalism, seemed all evident. And he is an intelligent man. He has taken all the Bush changes he basically put them into the establishment, he has codified them. That is what is sad. So we are going into the second administration that is living outside the law and does not respect the law and foundations of our system and he is a constitutional lawyer, you know. Without the law, it is the law of the jungle. Nuremburg existed for a reason and there was a reason to have trials, there is a reason for due process – ‘habeas corpus’ as they call it in the United States.

RT: Do you agree Peter?

Peter Kuznick: I agree, if you look at his domestic policy, he did not break with the Bush administration’s policies. If you look at his transparency – he claimed to be the transparency president when he was running for office. There has not been transparency. We have been actually classifying more documents under Obama than we did under Bush. All previous presidents between 1970 and 2008 indicted three people total under Espionage Act. Obama has already indicted six people under the Espionage Act. The surveillance has not stopped, the incarceration without bringing people to trial has not stopped. So those policies have continued.

Then there are war policies, militarization policies. We are maintaining that. We are fighting wars now in Yemen, Afghanistan, we are keeping troops in Afghanistan. We have not cut back the things that we all found so odious about the Bush administration and Obama added some of his own. The drones policy – Obama had more drone attack in the first eight months than Bush had his entire presidency. And these have very dubious international legality.

OS: Peter was hopeful that the in the second term there will be some more flexibility, we hope so. But, there is a system in place, which is enormous – the Pentagon system.

RT: It almost seems that they took the odious CIA policies and just branded them, so it is now acceptable – the assassinations, the extrajudicial executioner without the due process. It is fascinating.

**rubiksnoob**

Something something something sheeple!

**Ahtman**

rubiksnoob wrote:
Something something something sheeple!

What have you done?

**LordofHats**

I knew Oliver Stone was crazy but I can honestly say I didn't think he was quite this crazy.

Also: The irony of talking about administrative bodies acting outside the law (and about due process) while praising the Nuremburg Trials. That's hilarious!

**d-usa**

I fully agree that Obama has embraced and in some cases even gone beyond the majority of questionable civil rights attacks that Bush started.

I don't think we are "Orwelliain" yet.

**WarOne**

Orwellian? I'm waiting for my TVs to watch me like they do in Russia.

**d-usa**

You don't have an X-Box?

**WarOne**

d-usa wrote:
You don't have an X-Box?

It's name is Sony.

Family Guy Reference.

**AustonT**

d-usa wrote:
You don't have an X-Box?

I unplug my kinect when I'm engaged in thoughtcrime.

**rubiksnoob**

Well, I accidentally 30 million xboxes, so I'm screwed. Big Brother is probably breathing down my neck.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:
rubiksnoob wrote:
Something something something sheeple!

What have you done?

WAAAKE UP!

**KalashnikovMarine**

d-usa wrote:
I fully agree that Obama has embraced and in some cases even gone beyond the majority of questionable civil rights attacks that Bush started.

I don't think we are "Orwelliain" yet.

Well according to the stats up there 1.7 billion phone calls, emails and text messages are intercepted by the federal government every day. NYC just put in that monster crime prevention camera system. I agree Mr. Stone's engaging in hyperbole but it does seem pretty crazy.

The lack of challenge on all these civil rights attacks, for two presidents now is kinda bugging me as well.

**LordofHats**

Yes. Becuase the government wants to know that Chrissy thinks bobby is 'oh so hawt' and that I'm going to the LGC on Tuesday.

The cry of 'Orwellian State' has long been used to illogically attack any such proposal that might (the key word here is might) be used to abuse civil rights through a slippery slope while completely ignoring the deficiencies of the idea of the Orwellian state in the modern world (hello internet, I hear dictatorships hate you and make information control and manipulation very difficult so long as you remain free and open).

Lets get past this totalitarian fiction and pretend for a moment that an actual discussion can be had about the viability of things like camera systems can be had.

*pretend*

Okay. We can all return to our illogical hysteria over a fictional book from 1949 as though such a system is the only one that could ever infringe on our constitutional rights or that the current governmental systems we already live in aren't perfectly capable of doing it without those systems.

EDIT: The Zimmerman case. How useful might a camera have been there? We wouldn't even have to deal with all the BS about whose fault it was with footage of the events.

Rather than auto decrying "Orwellian State help help I'm being repressed!" we should actually consider the usefulness of the system, how it can be implemented and self-policed, and whether or not civil rights will be meaningfully violated.

**Seaward**

LordofHats wrote:
Yes. Becuase the government wants to know that Chrissy thinks bobby is 'oh so hawt' and that I'm going to the LGC on Tuesday.

Only criminals should be concerned, amirite?

**LordofHats**

Technically yes but that's not my point. My point is that the vast majority of communication is meaningless to anyone but ourselves and thus the government doesn't care. Yet, people explode their personal communications and actions within the context of discussions like this like they somehow actually matter.

And of course that bit about how the government hardly needs such things to infringe on civil rights and differentiating between a meaningful violation of civil rights (wire taps without warrants) and 'violations' that might as well mean nothing at all (a camera on the street corner that only gets pulled when something happened in the area).

Your communication and mine is of no interest to them cause we're just not that important.

Characterizing any system that intercepts information as Orwellian is absurd especially in such an abstract way. What's the oversight? What are they looking for, how exactly are they getting it? The government intercepts '1.7 billion messages a day' is such an abstract number it means nothing. 5,000,000,000 text messages are sent every day, nearly 300,000,000,000 emails, 300,000,000,000 cell phone calls, and I cant even find a number for land line calls or fax (and yes people do still use fax). That number is pathetically puny even when just looking at the US' statistics, so lets not pretend the US government is trying, or even wants to, spy on us all the time or that such a thing could even be possible. (Hell we're not even including every message left on Face Book, Twitter, or My Space or even forum posts!).

EDIT: Hell, I'd even propose they made that number up.

**Ouze**

d-usa wrote:
I fully agree that Obama has embraced and in some cases even gone beyond the majority of questionable civil rights attacks that Bush started.

I don't think we are "Orwelliain" yet.

Not yet, sure, but man have we ever wandered a goodly way down that path over the last 11 years with no signs of changing directions, generally.

**d-usa**

We reneved some crazy crappy bills this last week while everybody was busy talking about the fiscal cliff. Nothing like a good distraction for that sort of thing.

**Ouze**

I'd like to blame the media for that, but truthfully they give us exactly what we ask for, so I guess it's our fault, really.

**Relapse**

All of those Vendetta masks seen at the occupy protests make it seem tha Oliver Stone isn't the only one spouting or believing this.
The difference is the ones with the Vendetta masks are saying it's the right who created the state.
Same show, new generation.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
d-usa wrote:
I fully agree that Obama has embraced and in some cases even gone beyond the majority of questionable civil rights attacks that Bush started.

I don't think we are "Orwelliain" yet.

Well according to the stats up there 1.7 billion phone calls, emails and text messages are intercepted by the federal government every day. NYC just put in that monster crime prevention camera system. I agree Mr. Stone's engaging in hyperbole but it does seem pretty crazy.

The lack of challenge on all these civil rights attacks, for two presidents now is kinda bugging me as well.

If you think that's bad try living in the UK. In terms of numbers of CCTV and communications intercepts, we're probably the second most spied upon populace in the world. Only North Korea is probably worse than us. At least you guys have a bill of rights to protect you. All we have is horse gak!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:
Technically yes but that's not my point. My point is that the vast majority of communication is meaningless to anyone but ourselves and thus the government doesn't care. Yet, people explode their personal communications and actions within the context of discussions like this like they somehow actually matter.

And of course that bit about how the government hardly needs such things to infringe on civil rights and differentiating between a meaningful violation of civil rights (wire taps without warrants) and 'violations' that might as well mean nothing at all (a camera on the street corner that only gets pulled when something happened in the area).

Your communication and mine is of no interest to them cause we're just not that important.

Characterizing any system that intercepts information as Orwellian is absurd especially in such an abstract way. What's the oversight? What are they looking for, how exactly are they getting it? The government intercepts '1.7 billion messages a day' is such an abstract number it means nothing. 5,000,000,000 text messages are sent every day, nearly 300,000,000,000 emails, 300,000,000,000 cell phone calls, and I cant even find a number for land line calls or fax (and yes people do still use fax). That number is pathetically puny even when just looking at the US' statistics, so lets not pretend the US government is trying, or even wants to, spy on us all the time or that such a thing could even be possible. (Hell we're not even including every message left on Face Book, Twitter, or My Space or even forum posts!).

EDIT: Hell, I'd even propose they made that number up.

We need some historical context here!

One intercept, a trillion intercepts. It makes no difference. It's the principal that bothers some people.

**dogma**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:

Well according to the stats up there 1.7 billion phone calls, emails and text messages are intercepted by the federal government every day. NYC just put in that monster crime prevention camera system. I agree Mr. Stone's engaging in hyperbole but it does seem pretty crazy.

1.7 billion phone calls, emails, and text messages in a nation of 311 million, most of whom make use of email in the course of their work lives, isn't all that many. That's less than 6 individual communications per person, per day. Consider that I went to bed at 2 a.m., woke up at 8 a.m. and in the span of 6 hours received 23 emails.

**Alfndrate**

Technically I received over 250 from work alone this weekend... Granted that was an automated response telling me to change a back up tape...

I used to send well over 200 text messages a day, a couple dozen tweets, and 11.72 posts on dakka per day...

**Howard A Treesong**

Cries of an 'Orwellian' state are hyperbole. North Korea is the closest thing, pretty close actually other than the TVs spying on people. There are valid concerns about a surveillance state and government control but let's not get carried away.

I recall reading somewhere that 1984 was the book people are mostly likely to claim the have read when they haven't. Maybe that's why terms like 'Orwellian' are too quick to be used and not challenged.

**dogma**

Howard A Treesong wrote:

I recall reading somewhere that 1984 was the book people are mostly likely to claim the have read when they haven't. Maybe that's why terms like 'Orwellian' are too quick to be used and not challenged.

I read that as well. Its one fixture of many lists like that, along with the Bible and War & Peace.

**Ouze**

Well, I think it's likely a lot of people started reading it, decided it was too dry, and called it a day. 1984 was definitely slow moving, along with Fahrenheit 451. One of those books they beat you with in high school, like The Crucible or Johnny Tremain.

**AustonT**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Cries of an 'Orwellian' state are hyperbole. North Korea is the closest thing, pretty close actually other than the TVs spying on people. There are valid concerns about a surveillance state and government control but let's not get carried away.

I recall reading somewhere that 1984 was the book people are mostly likely to claim the have read when they haven't. Maybe that's why terms like 'Orwellian' are too quick to be used and not challenged.

it almost as though "Orwellian" is an adjective in its own right.

**azazel the cat**

d-usa wrote:I fully agree that Obama has embraced and in some cases even gone beyond the majority of questionable civil rights attacks that Bush started.

I don't think we are "Orwelliain" yet.

I think all the elements are there, however those elements tend to be quite heinous outliers, and not the norm that is required in an Orwellian society.

Most of this is just Oliver Stone attempting to be relevant again.

**BryllCream**

Ouze wrote:
Well, I think it's likely a lot of people started reading it, decided it was too dry, and called it a day. 1984 was definitely slow moving, along with Fahrenheit 451. One of those books they beat you with in high school, like The Crucible or Johnny Tremain.

Orwell is generally regarded as being extremely readable. I suggest you try again, Nineteen Eighty Four is a very easy book to read.

**KalashnikovMarine**

azazel the cat wrote:
d-usa wrote:I fully agree that Obama has embraced and in some cases even gone beyond the majority of questionable civil rights attacks that Bush started.

I don't think we are "Orwelliain" yet.

I think all the elements are there, however those elements tend to be quite heinous outliers, and not the norm that is required in an Orwellian society.

Most of this is just Oliver Stone attempting to be relevant again.

Between the Patriot Act, NDAA, and the President regularly targeting individuals for assassination, not to mention the wars Obama's started I'd say that between Shrub and Obama those outliers aren't so far out any more.

**Frazzled**

rubiksnoob wrote:
Something something something sheeple!

Would it be wrong to say people like that need to fall into a wormhole and be dropped into a Soviet Gulag circa 1937 for a little "perspective?"

And people wonder why I won't pay for anything Stone related.

**Mannahnin**

I've said for many years that Stone is talented and entertaining when working with fiction (original screenplay for Conan, no?), but should be steered away from when he tries to get historical (JFK, anyone?).

1984 isn't dry or (IMO) particularly difficult to read. It's certainly a short, and straightforword, book. It is quite dark, though, and no doubt depressing and not enjoyable to people being forced to read it and who aren't normally given to reading for intellectual stimulation.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
...not to mention the wars Obama's started...

Say what now? I don't disagree that Obama's been pretty bad in terms of continued anti-freedom government policies, but I'm curious which wars you're referring to. To the best of my recollection the only new armed conflict we've entered into under Obama was Libya, and we specifically let the EU take the lead on that, rather than initiating it.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Cries of an 'Orwellian' state are hyperbole. North Korea is the closest thing, pretty close actually other than the TVs spying on people. There are valid concerns about a surveillance state and government control but let's not get carried away.

Speaking of such governments, East Germany was another classic, back in the day. I'd like to take this opportunity to recommend to anyone who hasn't seen it the fantastic German film The Lives of Others (that's the English title, of course). Really an outstanding look at what life was like in that kind of country, and just a great, moving, and entertaining movie as well. The score is superb as well.