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Hi all

So here is my list

L- Greyseer w SB 440pts

C- (50) clanrats w Sp, Sh, FC 270pts

C- (50)stormvermin w Sh, FC 425pts

R (2) hell pit abomination's 470pts

I think this would do well. Just need help on what to do with 395pts.

Thanks

you need re-directors, so some small 20 man slave units or a few rat darts is a must. Otherwise take some anti warmachine gutter runners with poisoned attacks. Also let us know how many Stormvermin you are taking

Ok here is my re-viced list.

L- Greyseer w SB 440pts

H- Chieftain, BSB, AoF, rat guard 110pts

C- (50) clanrats w Sp, Sh, FC 270pts

C- (51)stormvermin w Sh, FC 433pts

S- (10) gutter runners 120pts

S- (10) gutter runners 120pts

R (2) hell pit abomination's 470pts

Hello
Since you have 2 hellpits I would not take Stormvermins! From now on you need bodies. and some range which in this case would be Weapon teams. The build you are building atm is more or less like Castle build. Well g2g but atleast I said something yolo

MegaMan11- Thanks I'll take them out and add some slaves and WT.

Hellpits are awesome. But there are actually more cost effective units. I speak of Warp lightning Cannon. Well if you dont like them You could go for 2 hellpit or 1 hellpit, 1 doomwheel and 1 warp lightning Cannon.
I would probably go for 1 of each. If you do then you get awesome fire power but also good melee. Hellpit as your main hammer backed up with Doomwheel. If you do this. You could also go for a stormvermin unit as a mini hammer just like the doomwheel.
If you field Stormvermins I would consider in remove some of your gutter runners to get points for your Core. Like some weapon teams and more Clanrats. Dont forget stormbanner on ur stormvermins.

Also remember that 50 stormvermins in 1 single Unit is a bit overkill. Remember that you wont get more dmg output only because you have more guys in a squad.

Also dont forget Warlocks

MegaMan11- Ya I would use cannons but I've used them before and they always seemed to half of the time blow up or shoot my own guy's. I know that its common for skaven weapons to do this but with me they always seemed to do it more often then they should. what else would you suggest trying?

Well I dont really know what you are up to. Give me your current ideas and your list, and lets go on from there.


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Anyhow.

I would follow the standard template when building a skaven army. Which are

1 model for every 10 point = 200 models more or less.

You should have 2 hammer units 1 and a half could work but definately dont use 3.

Lets start with hammers:
Every army should include 1 hellpit which you have.
the second one is up to you.
If you want to you can devide the second hammer into 2. Like doomwheel and a warlord.

I would not suggest Plaguemonks/plaguepriest/furnace since they have only Initiative 3/Low survival/and cost a huge amount of points specially when you include furnace and plaguepriest. They are also hard to manouvre.
I really like the doomwheel/warlord combination. Which also allows you to field 1 Warp lightning cannon for the extra punch.
This gives you 1 big hammer and 2 small hammerers.
But as you may know this is not possible if you have a screaming bell.
Atleast you can always have hellpit and doomwheel but you will need some more dmg.
Either that dmg can come from some weapon teams which I would go for = castle build or get that plaguepriest with plaguemonks which will give you 1 additional hammer = 2 ½ hammer. A bit to much but it´s up to you.

Second part I would think of is Do you want to be range heavy or melee heave. In either case I would take Gutter runners with poison and slings but the difference is in how many you want to take.
I prefer Range list which means I field a bit more gutter runners and skip the stormbanner. Also stormbanner wont fu* up your cannon/ weapon teams.

As I said earlier lend me your current list and we will try to work it out.

Looks like you're going for a pretty standard internet-awesome list, so here are my two Warptokens:

- your Seer has a 100pt allowance; I'd take advantage of at least some of that. The Power Scroll has been a popular choice, though a Dispel Scroll is a great buy as well.
Beyond that, I like Skalm and the Shadow Magnet Trinket or the Ironcurse Icon on a Bell-Seer

- you don't have a Battle Standard Bearer? Any Skaven list ever is going to have a Chieftain BSB. And I would strongly suggest decking him out with as much protection as you can.

- a Warlock Engineer with the Doomrocket is ridiculously cheap for absurdly destructive potential. I usually give mine some Wizard levels to back up my Seer.

- Clanrats generally perform better without spears. That is to say, they perform about as well with spears as they do without, but they're half a point cheaper without them.

- it's hard to say if Stormvermin should be given shields; they're one of those tricky middle-ground units that are kind of expensive, but maybe not quite expensive enough to be worth an extra point/model to protect them from some shooting.
With such a huge number of them, I wouldn't bother. I'd also consider dropping them down 10-15 models or so. Unless you were planning on running them with the Bell, instead of the Clanrats?
Also, I'd get them the Stormbanner. With a Bell and two A-bombs, there is Zero reason not to take that amazing piece of magic goodness.

- Gutter Runners aren't worth it without Poison Attacks and Slings (with them, they can tear up war machines with alarming efficiency).
I also don't think you need so many of them; the uses you can put Gutter Runners to usually don't require a huge force.
If you really want tons and tons of them, I'd also consider splitting them up into three units.

- the Warp Lightning Cannon is the single best unit in the book, but A-bombs are monstrously good as well.
If you want to take two, I'd really recommend some Warpstone Spikes, so they can eat ghosts!

- as far as other options go, I'd consider the "rat dart" (5 Giant Rats + a Packmaster); a 23pt unit with M6, 6 attacks, and a super-tiny foot print.
- 20 Slaves or 3 Rat Swarm bases can do similar things while also being able to take a fair amount of punishment.
- I'm going to have to disagree with MegaMan111 on Clan Pestilens, though. 7pts for a T4 ItP model with A3 is a great deal; they're more durable than Stormvermin versus a wide variety of attacks, and they'll never, ever run except after losing combat.
The Priest is also a rock-solid character (T5 Wizard), on the Furnace or not.
Censer Bearers can bring the hurt, but you have to use them correctly.
If you do take Plague Monks, and you have a Storm Banner somewhere else already, take the Plague Banner. It is...idiotically good.

The thing about plague Clan is their Low Initiative. They are very fragile to spells such as Purple sun the most expensive spell in Lore of Death. They cost alot of money 7 / model and with a furnace/priest which also cost alot are very weak. Can get easily blocked by Slaves for example. Also they are frenzied which means you cant leave combat etc etc. But i can´t deny their huge dmg output and the very good thing that they are unbreakable which gives them the ability to run outside LD bubble. But for their cost 35 monks/furnace/priest it gets up to 500 points and wips it became a great target for enemies. That´s why I prefer Warlord instead of the priest who is a better fighter and has more survivebility and you can give him items so he is very flexible to. Also keep in mind that you can Death frenzy that unit and it gets about the same dmg output But you must be sure to whipe your target out in 1/2 rounds. And all this for less point. Also dont forget skavenbrew on warlock who is also great to take aggro in challenges and such. You will not get the magic banner but I dont really see it as a problem.
You should always equip clanrats with shields gives them more surviveabilit and with some boost and with warlord in front they are not to be underestimated.
And yes dont forget Giant rats!

megaman111- Ok here is my current list:

L- Greyseer w SB 440pts

H- Chieftain, BSB, AoF, rat guard 110pts

C- (50) clanrats w Sp, Sh, FC, Warp fire thrower 340pts

C- (30) stormvermin w Sh, ratling gun 295pts

C- (25) slaves 50pts

C- (25) slaves 50pts

S- (15) gutter runners w sling 195pts

S- (6) warplock jezzails 120pts

R- (1) hell pit abomination w WS 250pts

R- (1) Doomwheel 150 pts

2000pts even. And for your second part I want to go more combat heavy with some range support.

Uhm lets see.
Get some item on grey seer Like skalm so he dont die You could also go for earthing Rod.

BSB Remove AoF and Rat Guard get enchanted shield or maybe +1 magic resistance for your whole squad. You could also get the Storm banner on your BSB and therefore skip the stormvermin unit. The stormvermin unit dosent really make any sense in your list Even tho I have spoken of it.
(I would actually go for storm banner on your BSB in this case).
Dont forget to equip him with a shield.

Reduce the number of clanrats 50 is a bit overkill maybe go for 40 with shields and stuff. I assume this is the unit who carry the Bell.

Like I said before. Take the Stormbanner on your BSB so you can skip Stormvermins.

I suggest Warp fire thrower instead of Rattling gun.

Get another squad of Clanrats about 30 and get poison wind mortar.

Get some more slaves in each squad somewhere between 40-50.

Since you have stormbanner Gutter runners is not a must but I would take about 6. They will work as redidict and warmachine hunters. Remember you dont have to activate your Stormbanner.
OBS dont forget to equip them with poison its a must. If you dont they are useless.

I would consider a Warp lightning Cannon. You never know how much they can get for their points but since you want a more melee heavy list I would avoid it and it dosent like the Storm banner.

Since you have stormbanner I would not take Jezzails. Imagen with 6 you will hit with 3 on an average and with storm banner even less.

For their points and reduce numbers in runners i would take some rat darts and Maybe get one more clan rat squad with another Poison wind mortar for the extra punch. You could also take Rat ogres for the fun xD. Specially if you incist in having alot of gutter runners.

OBSSS DONT FORGET Warlock ENGINEER WITH DOOMROCKET!!!!!

And how competive do you wanna be ?

megaman111- I want to be as competitive as possible. And thanks for the help really appreciate. I'll start re-writing.


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Should I add anything else beside DR for the warlock or just leave him as is.

Well you Could go for Condenser and have a mini wizard-backup.

But doomrocket alone is good enough. With earthing Rod on your grey seer he should be able to stay away from the bad misscast rolls.

So I personally prefer Doomrocket alone so he can charge out from his squad and block some incoming charges without loosing 25 points. You can also use him as dead meat in challenges. Dont forgett that you can also skitterleap him in front of enemy melee units to slow them down.

Ok cool. than I'll leave him as is.


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And I read you like using a warlord combo w doomwheel. what do you arm your warlord? might give it a try.

- Get your BSB a 4+ Ward save if at all possible. A halberd is also a suprisingly good defensive choice; +1S is better than +1 armour, almost always.
I don't know how people win games when they give him the Storm Banner. Negating some cannon-fire is not worth giving up your re-rolls in the first round of combat when he gets murdered.

- drop the spears on the Clanrats. They're not worth the cost. 50 models is a good size to push the Bell, though.

- I'd drop the Ratling Gun from the Stormvermin. It's a decent weapon team, but not great. Plus, I'd sooner see a Warp Lightning Cannon.

- 50 Slaves is a good number. 20 can re-direct units really well. The 5 extra bodies won't do anything.

- there is no reason whatsoever to having 15 Gutter Runners in one big unit. Two units of 7/8 would be good, as would three of 5. And without Poison Attacks and slings, they're not worth it.

- Jezzails are not that great. They're expensive, have a low BS, and are very hard to maneuver.

- I'm not a big fan of the Doomwheel; it's a 150pt specialist. It can't do much to turn the tide of a fight with one of your big blocks, and the targets it can go after by itself are few. I'd much rather see two Warp Lightning Cannons. They are the best unit in the book. The. Best.
They might not fire in the rounds the Storm Banner is up, but that's okay.

- a lvl2 Engineer with a Rocket serves me pretty well. A lot of people go with the Warp-Energy Condenser too. Having a back-up caster is a good move.

as for the negative aspects of Plague Monks:

1. 16% more of them die to Purple Sun and Pit of Shades compared to Clanrats and Slaves. That's only 2 spells. And they're ItP, so it's not like they'll Panic from it.

2. 7pts is not a lot for a model. It's also not a lot for T4 and A3. They can be blocked by Slaves, you say? So can everything else. But the Monks can chew through those Slaves a lot faster than the other units. Frenzy is a bit of a drawback, but Ld10 with a re-roll means it will basically never come up.

3. a Warlord is indeed a better fighter. And a Lord. And not a Wizard. And not T5.
And just because you could cast Deathfrenzy on some other unit doesn't mean the Monks are a poorer choice. The fact is that they have the ability without need of the spell being cast, or even known.
And though the Warlord + his unit is less points than Monks with a Furnace, he also doesn't do D6 S5 Impact Hits, force D6 T-tests, or do an Artillery die of S5 auto-hits. And, of course, doesn't make them Unbreakable.

But my main point is that the Monks, on their own, without a character, are at least on par with other units.
Honestly, though, the Furnace is generally considered to be better than the Bell; less random and less expensive.

Warpsolution- Hmmm you make some good points. I'll drop the jezzails. and see if I can upgrade the chieftain. As for the monks and furnace I would take them but I already have a bell and just don't have the money to add them.

as for the cannons I don't know I mean there good but as I wrote before I always seemed to have bad luck with them but who knows maybe I'll give them a try again.

I agree with Warpsolution on most points.
I really thought that you wanted to go for A screaming bell. I also really prefer furnace instead of screaming bell. And if you are not going to take Bell then take Furnace. Its very important to win deployment if you field it. To win it you need alot of units take rat darts and slaves. Also dont take Spears as stated earlier. Didn´t see them. Anyhow If I take Warlock engineer lvl 2 I would not take Plaguepriest vice versa. If you have Furnace then go for priest. Keep him lvl 1 and keep him cheap. Get him a flail for the extra punch.
And yes you must keep you BSB safe specially if you dont have a screaming bell. I would consider in having BSB and grey seer in different clanrat squads With shields. This also allows you to take some weapon teams. You can skip the Stormbanner put then atleast take 10-12 gutter runners. In 2 squads also as stated.

Warlord vs priest. Warlord armor save and are goona make much more dmg with upgrades then Priest. for less points. The Furnace with the priest do about the same as a warlord on a war-litter. Also Furnace must charge to get the most out of it.

Screaming bell is mostly used in ETC and Comp lists. When going all out on pure list building the bell is less seen.

Also 2 WPC is indeed the best choice but then we have to make some major changes.

Sounds good but as I said I already have the bell and just don't have the money to buy a furnace or plague monks right now.

Exactly that is my point
Its not that Bell is bad and there are som nasty combos you can do with it. Lets make the best out of it.
Its a bit overkill to field both bell and furnace in a 2k point game.
And with a screamingbell you are pretty much forced to take stormbanner on BSB if you want a melee orientated list. The only other option is to have stormvermins carrying the bell but then you need alot of them and they are to expensive in points. Specially in 2k point game.

So if you dont really wanna go for a range list with WLC i see no other choice than have BSB in the bell unit. Since the bell unit is unbreakable you can turn it 90 degree so they attack your flank and they wont be able to reach your BSB/grey seer. Then you charge the chargers with your clanrat/ warlord if thats the only way to get rid of them.

Which means your BSB will only be scared of Spells. And you have +2 MR with the bell. You can add some more MR with upgrades on a warlock but I dont think that is neccesary.

And since 2k point game is limited I would go for either gutter runners or Warp lightning Cannon.
In this case if you are really afraid of your BSB to die I would skip the stormbanner and go full Range. With 2 WLC hellpit maybe some gutter runners (very few they are always awesome) Warlord on war-litter make up the hammering with clanrats and then again with many wepaon teams. I prefer 1 fire 2 poison wind mortar as you can move and shoot.

And of course with slaves in the front.

Also dont forget to upgrade Warlock engineer to lvl 1 with condenser dont upgrade him to lvl 2 since you want to use the rest of your power dice for your Grey seer. And a warlock with condenser is the ultimate for Warp lightning attacks. Dont forget Doomrocket.

I agree

Ohh sorry about the warlord forgott that you had the bell and cant afford him

Stormvermin work pretty well as a bunker for your BSB; if your not too worried about templates and spells, 10 of them with the Banner costs a measly 135pts.
I like to field them in a unit of 30, though. It's not huge, so I keep them in reserve until the battle has really gotten thick, and then I throw them in to turn the tide.
If you don't like that idea though, I'd say the extra 85pts spent on the Stormvermin is worth having both the Storm Banner and a well-protected BSB.

As far as having bad luck with Warp Lightning Cannons: just ignore all previous games, man. Independant Probability and all that.

Also, MR doesn't stack. You use the biggest value in the unit.

And finally, the Warlord versus the Priest. Let's give the first a Warlock Augmented Weapon, Enchanted Shield, a Talisman of Preservation, and a war-litter.
The later has a Talisman of Preservation, and Ironcurse Icon, flail, and a Plague Furnace.

Assuming WS4 S4 T4 A2 I4:

The Furnace doesn't charge (no Impact Hits). So 3.5 T-tests versus, let's say WS4 T4 I4 with a 5+ armour--the Warhammer average--so that's 1.2 Wounds.
The Priest will do 2.2 Wounds.
Then they swing with 15 attacks, so that's 1.3 Wounds.
The Monks on the Furnace do 1. Then the Furnace hits for an average of 3.3. That's a total of 7.7 Wounds.

The Warlord does 2.2, his litter does .8. That's 3 Wounds.
They get hit back for .6 Wounds.

So the Furnace does way more damage and takes more damage.

warpsolution: Wow thats amazing with the furnace. And as for the cannons I guess I could give them a try again and being only 90 pts is cheap con-pared to the potential damage they can do

Cannons, on average, work about half the time. If you managed to hit a unit of 10pt models, even hitting 12 guys, a less-than-direct hit, will earn you your points back.

They work half the time. Just keep that in mind, and ignore any patterns your brain is trying to make relevant. It's a trick.

I can attest to what Warp has said. I take two cannons more often than not, and I do that because I find I have to spend both of their shooting at the same target. One of them will end up missing, overshooting, misfiring, or in some other way\shape\form being useless that turn, and then the other one will do something amazing. Treat them like a paired weapons system that, on occasion, you'll get to fire at two separate targets lol.

Ok you guys convinced me I'll do the cannons lol