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I will create a nice diagram here!


|
|CHAOS
|__________
|
|
DOOM |


This is Doom standing below Chaos Models in a building. For his spirit leech ability would we measure from the base doom on the ground to the base of the Chaos units?

Or do we measure from Dooms Throbbing Huge Pulsing Head to the unit.

1. Would make the Chaos out of range. 2. In range.

Thanks for any help, and any rules to back this up. As this isn't a physic attack I wasn't sure how to figure it out.

Base to base
See page 4 "Measuring Distances" third paragraph.

Base to Base
"Coping with Different Heights" Pg 98 Ruins

Also if he cannot see them he cannot cause any wounds, even if in range

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Also if he cannot see them he cannot cause any wounds, even if in range

Why's that? It's not a shooting attack.
Not arguing, just curious as to why you say that.

If you dont follow the shooting rules, you dont have any basis for allocating wounds out of the wound pool.

Which is an absolute RAW. Glitch that's happened in the change over to 6th any sensible person would ignore and play it RAI

Eldercaveman wrote:
Which is an absolute RAW. Glitch that's happened in the change over to 6th any sensible person would ignore and play it RAI

Do you have anything to support your assertion that the RAW and the RAI are two different things?

Eldercaveman wrote:
Which is an absolute RAW. Glitch that's happened in the change over to 6th any sensible person would ignore and play it RAI

Which studio member are you?

Spirit leech is not a shooting attack nor is it a psychic ability Two things that state they require LOS. So the out of sight rule wouldnt apply. Its more along the lines of Immotekh's lightning ability. Im not a necron player so how are people allocating those wounds? As a friendly player i would give my opponent the benefit of picking the models taken. In a more competitive environment however I would actually call for random allocation of these wounds.

The Doom of Malan'Tai. Page 58 Codex: Tyranids

Spirit Leech:
"At the beginning of every shooting phase, including the foe's every non vehicle unit within 6" of the Doom of Malan'Tai...."

It doesn't say it is a shooting attack, it doesn't say it requires LOS, what it does say is that EVERY non-vehicle unit within 6" is effected. The same way a Sanguinary Priest doesn't require LOS to his units in order to grant FNP to them, the only restriction is that they are within 6" and are eligible targets.

The issue becomes that there are no rules for allocating wounds unless you use the shooting or CC rules - the latter makes no sense in this case and the former has the LOS restriction. Intended? Who knows. It's possible.

The bigger issue is that there is no way to accurately assign wounds even if you do use the shooting rules, since it's going to be impossible to determine the arc of sight for a model that doesn't exist yet.

Even if you go with a regular Zoanthrope model, Zoeys have no eyes. Which players are normally happy to ignore... the shooting rules let you point a model at their target, so the actual direction their eyes (or lack thereof) are pointing on the model is irrelevant.

But if the Doom has a unit in front, and a unit behind, and a unit off to the left... which of them can it see?

If you're assuming that Spirit Leach needs LOS, it breaks very, very quickly unless there is only a single unit within 6".

I'd just use it similar to a nova power.

I assume that, like any other ranged attack, it needs LOS to allocate wounds out of the wound pool.

It doesnt "break" Spirit Leech, it just makes it far less a no brainer choice for nids if it doesnt nuke EVERYTHING in a 360 bubble regardless of LOS, which goes against how 6th ed defines casualty removal

It has no explicit allowance to ignore Page 16, so it doesnt - OR it doesnt work at all. A compromise position of "let it work using page 16" seems good to me

You dont need allowance to ignore pg 16. Its not shooting a weapon. Pg 16 clearly states "the firing model" so out of sight has no effect on spirit leech. Doesnt state it needs LOS so im not going to add that restriction. Again like the necron lightning ability. While it may be very nasty at times its hit or miss. leadership tests are passed half the time, add to it the fact its only T4 and can easily be doubled and its not near as OP as everyone seems to think.

Backlash wrote:
add to it the fact its only T4 and can easily be doubled and its not near as OP as everyone seems to think.

Until you roll Iron Arm and your opponent can't roll less than a 17 to save his life. Great for D&D characters, not so much for 40k.

I've had great luck with the Doom. Either he is ignored and units keep rolling 15+, our for one turn every single enemy unit focuses fire on him and it takes 2000 points to kill a single 90 point unit...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've had great luck with the Doom. Either he is ignored and units keep rolling 15+, our for one turn every single enemy unit focuses fire on him and it takes 2000 points to kill a single 90 point unit...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I assume that, like any other ranged attack, it needs LOS to allocate wounds out of the wound pool.

So, again, if the Doom has a unit in front, and a unit behind, and a unit off to the left... which of them can it see?

 insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I assume that, like any other ranged attack, it needs LOS to allocate wounds out of the wound pool.

So, again, if the Doom has a unit in front, and a unit behind, and a unit off to the left... which of them can it see?

While I understand the point your trying to make, its kinda silly. "From its eyes" being taken too literally will result in alot of non functional units. There are no "eyes" on space marines helmets.. There are eye slots, visors,etc... but rare few "eyes". Maybe a Sgt or so.

For those who say that SL doesnt require LOS, which models do you remove when you kill some? Do you pull the farthest or whichever one you like, since it is not a shooting attack and doesnt follow the "closest" rules too ?

Why does the SL allow for a cover save, since it is not a shooting attack but an ability?

Fragile wrote:
Why does the SL allow for a cover save, since it is not a shooting attack but an ability?

Because they are not denied - as they are with close combat attacks.

Fragile wrote:
While I understand the point your trying to make, its kinda silly. "From its eyes" being taken too literally will result in alot of non functional units. There are no "eyes" on space marines helmets.. There are eye slots, visors,etc... but rare few "eyes". Maybe a Sgt or so.

So the answer to my previous question is...?

For those who say that SL doesnt require LOS, which models do you remove when you kill some? Do you pull the farthest or whichever one you like, since it is not a shooting attack and doesnt follow the "closest" rules too ?

I would follow the normal wound allocation rules, ignoring the LOS requirement, since they're the only rules we have for allocating wounds.

Why does the SL allow for a cover save, since it is not a shooting attack but an ability?

Because the guy who wrote the FAQ thought it should be allowed.

This is the same guy (presumably) who decided that battlements should not be treated as a building, so while it's the 'valid' way of playing for the moment, it shouldn't be taken as any indication as to how the rule is 'supposed' to work.

 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:
While I understand the point your trying to make, its kinda silly. "From its eyes" being taken too literally will result in alot of non functional units. There are no "eyes" on space marines helmets.. There are eye slots, visors,etc... but rare few "eyes". Maybe a Sgt or so.

So the answer to my previous question is...?

For those who say that SL doesnt require LOS, which models do you remove when you kill some? Do you pull the farthest or whichever one you like, since it is not a shooting attack and doesnt follow the "closest" rules too ?

I would follow the normal wound allocation rules, ignoring the LOS requirement, since they're the only rules we have for allocating wounds.

Why does the SL allow for a cover save, since it is not a shooting attack but an ability?

Because the guy who wrote the FAQ thought it should be allowed.

This is the same guy (presumably) who decided that battlements should not be treated as a building, so while it's the 'valid' way of playing for the moment, it shouldn't be taken as any indication as to how the rule is 'supposed' to work.

In this case, I believe you follow the Randomization rules, just like when deciding which front line model in assault takes the wound.

 insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I assume that, like any other ranged attack, it needs LOS to allocate wounds out of the wound pool.

So, again, if the Doom has a unit in front, and a unit behind, and a unit off to the left... which of them can it see?

I don't think it matters, no where in the rule does it say that any unit within 6 that the doom can see has to test, what it does say is EVERY unit within 6 has to test.

Backlash wrote:
You dont need allowance to ignore pg 16. Its not shooting a weapon. Pg 16 clearly states "the firing model" so out of sight has no effect on spirit leech. Doesnt state it needs LOS so im not going to add that restriction. Again like the necron lightning ability. While it may be very nasty at times its hit or miss. leadership tests are passed half the time, add to it the fact its only T4 and can easily be doubled and its not near as OP as everyone seems to think.

Then you have no permission to remove any models, at all, as you are not allowed to allocate wounds unless you use the shooting or close combat rules.

Which was the point you are ignoring - you are assuming you can allocate wounds, but have no allowance to do so. It isnt shooting. Yes, it effects every unit within 6", but the rules for casualty removal are foind under shooting or close combat,
which this is neither. So you dont get to remove any models, ever, and the ability is useless.

Or, you get to make a compromise - you get to use the ability, but any unit out of LOS doesnt get effected.


Insaniak - just assume 360 LOS around it, but anything that it could not see (out of LOS behind a wall, for example) it doesnt get to effect them.

I can cause wounds to units outside of LOS. There is no rule that states that i cant. Doom targets every unit within 6 inches. there is no restriction on LOS stated in the ability therefor it can happen. The ability states it automatically hits and generates a number of wounds depending. The only argument is what models to remove.

If a FMC used vector strike, jumped over a unit then behind a building to protect itself are you saying it cant inflict any wounds either? Again not a shooting attack. So the Out of sight rules that ONLY apply to shooting attacks doesn't apply. The argument of what models to allocate to is the only argument again, Doesn't mean you cant allocate them, just means you have to figure out who to allocate them to. Just because you don't know who to allocate them to doesn't mean they cannot be allocated.

Backlash - find permission to allocate wounds to models. I asked you this in the other thread, even stated so in the first response, but there are no rules allowing it.

If you do not use the shooting or CC rules you cannot allocate wounds from the wound pool. PEriod.

Pg. 15 under random allocation. random allocation can occur of the position of the attacker is unclear. They use the mawlocs TFtD and callidus assassin polymorphine as examples of where you should use random. Two other abilities that wound through means other than shooting or assault. There is your permission.

Unclear.

That one word gives you the leeway to allocate them randomly when the answer is not clearly stated. Also nowhere does it say that shooting and CC are the only ways to allocate wounds. By your reasoning vector strike and a host of other abilities are useless. Permission found.

So, why are you using the Shooting rules in the first place?

Is it a shooting attack?

No. You cannot use the shooting rules

Is it a close combat attack?

No. You cannot use the close combat attack rules

The rules are permissive, so it has to say "you can use the shooting rules for any attack that isnt close combat" (or something similar) otherwise you have no permission to use them.

Yes, strictly GW rules results in a TON of useless rules. Who'd have thought.

Does the section say it is only for allocation of wounds from shooting attacks? Nope, therefore it all falls under the same category. I have wounds in a wound pool so i allocate them through whatever means is appropriate for the situation. Unless there is a rule that states i cannot for some particular reason "out of sight rule for example". I can allocate wounds from my wound pool to valid targets.