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HI dakadakka.

I cant sleep, so i decided to throw out an eldar list for fun.

What are your thoughts?

Eldar 2k List

HQ (210):
Eldrad Ulthran – 210

Troops (764):
Rangers (10) w/ Pathfinder Upgrade – 240
Dire Avengers (10) w/ Exarch, Dual Shuriken Catapults, Blade storm – 152
Wave Serpent w/ Twin-Linked Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon – 110
Dire Avengers (10) w/ Exarch, Dual Shuriken Catapults, Blade storm – 152
Wave Serpent w/ Twin-Linked Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon – 110

Elites (197):
Striking Scorpions (10) w/ Exarch, Biting Blades, Shadowstrike – 197

Fast Attack (195):
Vyper w/ Eldar Missile Launcher – 65
Vyper w/ Eldar Missile Launcher – 65
Vyper w/ Eldar Missile Launcher – 65

Heavy Support (410):
War Walker Squadron w/ 6 Scatter Lasers – 180
Fire Prism – 115
Fire Prism – 115

Fortifications (125):
Aegis Defence Line w/ Quad-Cannon – 125

Total – 1901

Interesting choice running vypers. Most would argue that they got weaker than they already were due to hull points. I say they are equally fragile considering they died so easily to begin with, but at least now they get jink! Maybe give them scatter lasers over EMLs', but why not just drop them to get some fragons in a serpent?

Striking scorpions took it hard in the A** in 6th, so they are next to garbage. Decent loadout, but they still fail pretty hard. Points way better spent on dragons in a serpent.

10 pathfinders is a bit overkill, but I figure you have eldrad with them behind the ADL hanging out with the war walkers.

With 99 points to spend, another ranger squad is not a terrible idea, or if you drop the vypers for fragons in a serpent, get another vyper or something.

Vypers are still fine, they give you relatively cheap, highly mobile firepower which is largely expendable. As you mention they are fragile, but they have always been fragile. I wouldn't run them with Missiles though, with BS3 single shot weapons are too unreliable, I run mine with double Shuriken Cannons to maximise shots (since you can fire both on the move now) without having different range bands.

As for the actual list;
My initial thought is that it looks like a sub par 5th edition list. Overall 6th was not kind to Eldar and quite a few of the standard things you saw in Eldar lists in 5th are pretty terrible now.

Eldrad is solid, but he doesn't have that much to support and the only viable place I can see you using him is with the Pathfinders, which is a serious waste of his abilities. If all you want it a guy to Guide the Walkers (the Pathfinders don't really need it) then a standard Seer does the job fine. The big advantage of Eldrad is he is significantly more durable than a standard Seer, hits significantly harder in combat, and has the flexibility to cast the offensive powers when he has the opportunity (which is admittedly rare, but is nice to have). All this is wasted if he just sits at the back Guiding things.

3 scoring units is nowhere near enough for 2k. You used to be able to get away with this in 5th at high point levels, since Serpents kept your infantry safe, with Eldar in 6th I would be nervous with 3 scoring units at 1k let alone 2k. Since you can't hide inside vehicles to grab objectives you simply have to bring more bodies, I would be aiming for 6 scoring units minimum at 2k (since you really should be bringing allies at this level). At least 2 of these units should be Jetbikes imo, they are frustratingly durable, dirt cheap and insanely fast.
I'm not a fan of Rangers, partially because their damage output is terrible but mostly because they are static which is at odds with the rest of the army (even Guardians can move and shoot). I realise what you are using them for, but I can't see any reason to run a full 10 man unit, you can't grab multiple objectives anymore so 2 x 5 is pretty much always a better options (since either way they don't kill much).
Bladestorm Avengers have always been overrated, and 6th hasn't magically made them better. 9/10 with proper positioning you will be able to fire them twice anyway, which gives you 1 more shot than Bladestorming. Otherwise though their main issue is that they are relatively expensive, short ranged and purely anti infantry, they do nothing to deal with vehicles or MCs which tend to cause you more problems. This is all compounded by the fact that Serpents are terrible now, they were always marginally overcosted in 5th, but its pretty jarring how badly they are overpriced in 6th. If you want to run mech still then the advice is still the same though, take 5 naked Avengers not 10 and bring another squad for basically the same cost.
Imo unless you are making use of the 2++ rerollable silliness with Dark Eldar, then above 1500pts Eldar should ALWAYS ally with someone with good scoring units. This means Marines of some sort (quality) or Guard (quantity). What you take largely depends on the style of your list, but bring 2 x 10 Marines that can combat squad, or 30+ Guard + some other stuff seriously helps Eldar armies.

Scorpions were always a marginal choice, but in 6th all the Eldar assault units (apart from possibly Harlies) took a major hit. You can't assault from Infiltrate and you can't assault from Outflank, and putting them in a vehicle doesn't help either since they can't assault the turn they disembark. Either way you end up with T3 guys sitting nice and close ready to get shot to pieces. Its not that much of a stretch to call the entire Eldar Elite section terrible from a competitive POV, Harlies are ok but easily counterable, Banshees and Scorpions are terrible, Dragons really aren't needed anymore and are harder to deliver (Serpents are easier to focus down + your threat distance dropped slightly) and Wraithguard are seriously expensive (and only worth considering in 10 man units, which become Troops anyway).

So I would start by dumping the Scorpions and reworking your scoring units and then see how many points you have left over to add some heavier hitters.

Thanks for the responses

I think you're right about eldrad, he will likely sit back and buff things. So probably not the best use of points. What else is viable HQ? and if i was to keep him, how do i make better use of his abilities?

Maybe i've been playing marines too much, 3 troops probably wont do But, are rangers really that bad? BS4, and AP1 on rolls of 5/6 to wound... that seems pretty promising.
Bladestorm dire avengers are bad? i mean, 3 shots per guy at BS4 seems like a sweet deal. I know they are purely anti-infantry, but most troops are infantry, so when it comes to the final fire-fight over an objective, surely they'll have a slight edge.
I did consider 3 Guardian Jet Bikes with Shuriken Cannon for the last 99 points, but 3 T4, 3+ models as a scoring unit doesn't seem right. It seems too little.

If wave serpents are so bad, how does one achieve a mech-dar list? IIRC wave serpents are the only dedicated transport, which means i'll have to take them as transport.

The scorpions seemed like a good idea. A pretty good stat line (for eldar) and a sizeable number of attacks (due to wargear). But i do see the problem of not being able to assault out of infiltrate etc.

I thought the vypers were a good idea, for the same reasons land speeders are good to SMs. They are fast and cheap, and take some fire off other targets. They also seemed to be the most reasonable choice in the FA slot. With Spiders being a close second (the models are pretty cool, and i could see a unit of 10 doing fairly well).
I did look up Shadow Spectres. They are pretty awesome (and they are FA for codex eldar). I was hesitant to get into the FW stuff though.

Hows my heavy support looking? Judging by the fact you've said very little about it, i assume its ok. It was hard to pick it, there is so much choice in the HS slot. 3 Scatter laser WWs were obvious, just too cheap to pass up! and the 2 fire prisms seemed 'right' with the last two slots.

Thanks again for the help

Mechdar is fairly challenging to play in 6th. As previosly mentioned, infantry have to get out to hold or contest objectives. At some point in the game, your opponent will be able to assault and now they hit on a 3+ against moving tanks (WS1). I dont think doing away with all Eldar tanks is necessary either as I think you still require mobility. But, Eldar Jetbikes are good scoring units in this edition.

Just out of interest, why were you hesitant on the FW stuff?

Eldrad is still an amazingly good HQ, he just needs some stuff to push foward with. Imo he works better in a more infantry based army (even moreso than in 5th, where plenty of people ran him in mech lists but never used half his abilities because of the nature of the army). If you don't have a specific plan for your HQ then imo the default Eldar HQ choice is a Seer with Warding and either Doom or Guide (depends on how much T/L or BS4 stuff you have). Other than that, Autaraches are generally a waste now, since its already 3+ to arrive turn 2, and Eldar don't make much use of reserves anymore. Most likely you would take him as an ally in a flier heavy list, but even then very few people would take +1 to reserves over board wide psychic defence. The Avatar is still solid, generally prefers to have Fortune on him and works best in an infantry based list. Some of the Phoenix Lords are actually pretty good now since there is less AP2 in combat and you can usually LOS it away anyway, Karandras can wreck things with a bucketload of power fist attacks, Fuegan is a mini MC and Maugan Ra is still a solid all rounder.

Rangers/Pathfinders fall over at the wounding step mostly. Wounding on 4+ is fine for Dark Eldar, who throw buckets of dice at you, but with a full 10 shots you get 6.66 hits, which works out to about 1 rend and one 2 normal wounds (with Pathfinders its around the other way, 2 rends/AP1, 1 normal). The problem is that this is BEFORE saves, so those normal wounds normally just bounce and the rends quite often do as well from cover etc. In a competitive environment there is very little that they can effectively engage, they want to be shooting expensive/high toughness units but the vast majority of those are either tanky enough they don't care about losing a wound a turn (Nids etc) or bring their own cover or invulnerable saves (Wraiths etc). Defensively they get deleted by flamers and other cover ignoring weaponry and anything that's even half decent in assault will run them over. Both of these problems are magnified by their static nature, which means they can't back away from things threatening them.

My point with Avengers is that 99% of the time you are better off NOT Bladestorming, since you can then fire again in your next shooting phase and overall you end up firing 1 more shot per guy. Most troops are infantry (and have anti infantry weapons as standard), but most troops are also either cheaper or more durable and can bring heavy or special weapons which seriously improve their damage output and flexibility. In general I don't think much of the Eldar scoring units, it was fine in 5th when they could hide in transport all game, but outside of transports Eldar infantry is too fragile without hitting anywhere near hard enough.

Jetbikes are 66pts for a 3 man unit not 99 and the Cannon is only 10pts more (and not a must have by any means). I've been surprised at how annoying they are for my opponent, even with only 3 guys they are a pain to kill with T4 3+/5++. Most of the time you just reserve them, hope they arrive late and zoom around to avoid being damaged until they can jump onto an objective in the final turn. 48" of movement per turn means they can pretty much go anywhere they want, which combined with some decent terrain coverage means that your opponent usually has to go out of his way to kill them. In my last couple of games my opponents have been sending fliers and other highly mobile units to chase them, purely because if they don't I zoom them onto objectives turn 5+ and comfortably win.

You can take Falcons, which are slightly better than Serpents, but in general I would probably use Guard as the core scoring component of a Mechdar list now (with Chimeras). I'm not saying don't take Serpents, but they aren't something you can lean on to win you games anymore and they aren't an auto include like they used to be.

You don't win games by spamming S4 attacks. No one spams bolter Marines because its absolutely terrible, they bring special weapons, heavy weapons and power weapons/fists to be able to reliably hurt things. Scorpions are a pure anti light infantry unit (they won't reliably beat most Marine units) and anything they can do you can achieve more effectively with shooting, spamming S6 gives you all the anti infantry you need but it can damage vehicles as well + you can do it from 24"+ away. In practical terms the only Eldar assault units are the Avatar, Eldrad, Harlies (with proper support) and Wraithlords.

Spiders work best in small 5 man units actually. You drop them in behind vehicles and torrent them away, and then generally jump around dumping wounds on things or glancing vehicles to death.

Spectres are terrible, which is a shame cause they look awesome. Worse than Reapers for killing infantry (half the range, half the shots) and despite the range advantage still miles worse against vehicles than Dragons. They end up being over 200pts for what is effectively a 36" range Fire Prism shot (the Exarch weapon options are terrible, the next best combo after that is 1 S8 shot and 1 Haywire shot), which shows that the designers clearly have no idea what they are doing since an actual Prism is only 115. I would honestly rather have Hawks for killing vehicles than Spectres, and they are one of the worst units in the codex.

Yeah your Heavy is fine. Scatter Walkers do plenty of damage but are still pretty fragile, don't expect them to last against someone who wants them dead. Also don't expect them to deal with fliers for you, you need to roll a crazy number of 6's in a row to drop them. Prisms are also fine, running them in pairs is the way to go.

PredaKhaine wrote:

Just out of interest, why were you hesitant on the FW stuff?

Well, i'd have to drop £50 on IA:11 to use shadow spectres (for the rules). That and the fact that some people dont play with FW stuff.

I've given your feedback some consideration, and here is a list revision:

HQ (100):
Farseer w/ Runes of Witnessing, Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones - 100 (Do i need to buy powers even if i use brb powers?)

Troops (891):
Dire Avengers (5) - 60
Wave Serpent w/ Twin-Linked Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon – 110
Dire Avengers (5) - 60
Wave Serpent w/ Twin-Linked Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon – 110
Guardian Jetbike Squad (3) w/ Shuriken Cannon - 76
Guardian Jetbike Squad (3) w/ Shuriken Cannon - 76
Wraithguard (10) w/ Warlock: Conceal, Spiritseer, singing spear - 399

Heavy Support (410):
War Walker Squadron w/ 6 Scatter Lasers – 180
Fire Prism – 115
Fire Prism – 115

Fortifications (125):
Aegis Defence Line w/ Quad-gun - 125

Total - 1526

So thats where i am...
I figured Eldrad is a bit of a waste in this list, a simple farseer will do.
I also buffed up my troops. The jetbikes are in. They'll likely sit in reserve for as long as possible then avoid being killing in order to cap objectives. I kept the Dire Avengers... well a really cut down squad anyway. More scoring bodies i guess I looked at Wraithguard after reading what you guys thought. They are some seriously tough troops, i figure these are a keep.
The heavy support is the same, i think i've got that nailed

That stops me just under 500 points from 2k. I'm not really sure where to go from here? Maybe harlies and a seer counsil?

Or, like you suggested, allies?
Drop the 2 DA squads and their Wave Serpents, that'll give me around 840 points to play with. Grab an ally that can pick up where eldar let go. Better troops, more durable units?

Anyway, what do you think?

Zambro wrote:
Thanks for the responses

I think you're right about eldrad, he will likely sit back and buff things. So probably not the best use of points. What else is viable HQ? and if i was to keep him, how do i make better use of his abilities?

Maybe i've been playing marines too much, 3 troops probably wont do But, are rangers really that bad? BS4, and AP1 on rolls of 5/6 to wound... that seems pretty promising.
Bladestorm dire avengers are bad? i mean, 3 shots per guy at BS4 seems like a sweet deal. I know they are purely anti-infantry, but most troops are infantry, so when it comes to the final fire-fight over an objective, surely they'll have a slight edge.
I did consider 3 Guardian Jet Bikes with Shuriken Cannon for the last 99 points, but 3 T4, 3+ models as a scoring unit doesn't seem right. It seems too little.

If wave serpents are so bad, how does one achieve a mech-dar list? IIRC wave serpents are the only dedicated transport, which means i'll have to take them as transport.

The scorpions seemed like a good idea. A pretty good stat line (for eldar) and a sizeable number of attacks (due to wargear). But i do see the problem of not being able to assault out of infiltrate etc.

I thought the vypers were a good idea, for the same reasons land speeders are good to SMs. They are fast and cheap, and take some fire off other targets. They also seemed to be the most reasonable choice in the FA slot. With Spiders being a close second (the models are pretty cool, and i could see a unit of 10 doing fairly well).
I did look up Shadow Spectres. They are pretty awesome (and they are FA for codex eldar). I was hesitant to get into the FW stuff though.

Hows my heavy support looking? Judging by the fact you've said very little about it, i assume its ok. It was hard to pick it, there is so much choice in the HS slot. 3 Scatter laser WWs were obvious, just too cheap to pass up! and the 2 fire prisms seemed 'right' with the last two slots.

Thanks again for the help

Since SM & IG are allies of convenience, and allies of convenience count as enemy units that cannot be attacked etc, isn't it the case that allied SM or IG troops cannot score?

IG and SM can capture. Convenience are still considered your army. Desperate allies cannot capture.

OK, few things:
Minimize Wave Serpents. They are WAY overcosted and put out very little firepower for the points. If you need to keep DA safe, reserve them instead.
2: Fire prisms are still very mediocre. IMO, Support platforms now replaced them entirely. Either you can go very cheap with the shadow weaver for ~90 points for a T7 unit with 3 S6 blasts at 48" or go expensive with D cannons for killing heavier inf. Both are decent guide targets. They simply survive longer than prisms who often go down in turn 1-3.

3: Wraith walls are OK, but NEED fortune. This isnt an option. Either you have a farseer with them with fortune or your drop the unit. With precision shot you also have problems keeping the warlock alive for the cover save.

4: Yes, you need to buy powers on farseers. BRB powers are a poor idea for Eldar however as fortune, doom, and guide are the 3 best things you can get.

5: you have no melee. If running wraithwall, you will get locked in melee. Harlequin units are a very good backup to wraithwalls. Also, eldrad can run with the wraithwall and not slow it.

I thought it was only Battle Brothers that can score in an allied detachment...

With that in mind there is always Tau or DE.

Ahh well, i have 0 experiance / knowledge on tau or DE

You really consider fire prisms to be medicore? 230 points for 2 S9 AP2 blasts, or 1 S10 AP1 blast? seems like a sweet deal

What are you shooting with prisms? eldar need long ranged AT. Therefore fire prisms are 115 points for a las cannon most of the time. Linking shots requires both being able to fire, both being alive, and having them both in line of sight to each other and one having clear shots on the enemy. One cover save negates that shot. They simply dont have the fire rate to deal with vehicles well which is what you take them for. VS hordes they are meh, vs terminators they are decent (any decent player will spread out so you only get 1-2 hits) and they arent particularly accurate.

My list lacks the ability to deal with av14. I was kinda thinking the prisms would be my answer

Do you mean, other than the Wraithguard who can destroy a LR in a single turn, that your list lacks the abiilty to deal with AV14?

While running 10 Wraithguard, I would highly suggest a couple of things that complement them. Undoubtedly, they will end up being assaulted as many armies are safer in assault than being shot at by WG. This is not where you really want your most expensive unit. I'd look into either Harlies and/or allies, specifically the Baron. He has Hit and Run to pull the WG out of assault.

Harlies are probably the most complementary unit to WG and act as a great counter assault unit.

Hmm... the Baron... Is that the one that improves cover? (from DE i assume?)

I played one eldar / Deldar combo, they had WG and some other Deldar models in 1 unit which improved cover saves, iirc he had something like a 3/4+ permanent cover save.

But yes, i do worry that i lack av14. WG have only short ranged weapons, and i seriously doubt anyone would drive their LR up close. I did once... that was a crazy turn, i lost 1 LR and 5 termies :S

Maybe an allied DE Ravager would be useful here. 3 Dark Lances for 105 points. Worked wonders for me vs an IG list the other day.

Ravager.... Is that the one where it halfs the range of the weapon shooting at it? And dark lances... They sound like S9 weapons?

Ok, so, it appears i'm looking into DE allies. Where to start?

I have 500 points available to spend.
How do their troops look? Maybe, if they stand up better than Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent, i'll drop them and pick up some DE troops to make up for the loss.

I'll do a bit of reseach, but i'd really like some suggestions too

Thanks again for this help

Barron 105

5 wytches haywire grenades 55
venom 2x cannons 65

Ravager 105

Darklances are clones of brightlances. Ravagers are AV11 skimmers that mount 3.

I agree that Jet bikes are your friends. Fire Prisms work best in pairs, but aren't THAT great. I do see that most Eldar palyers are running them though. I'd personally prefer 9 War Walkers for massive Scatter Laser nastyness. Fire Dragons are probably the only reason I field Wave Serpents anymore. Striking Scorpions aren't that good. They will get beaten by most MEQ's or other assault orionted squads. I'd definately switch to harlies. Wraithguard are super cool looking, so I'd keep them around just for fluf reasons. One of the guys at our local gaming group has been allying with Vanilla Marines and using the White Scars bike kind of detachment long side his Eldar bike army to a wonderful effect. It's pretty tough to deal with a massive amount of highly mobile scoring units. So many armies are stagnant, or just geared to foot-slog up to mid-field and blast away. Being able to choose where and when you fight your opponent (which you can pretty much always do if your army is fast enough) gives you a major advantage. Taking out foot-slogging 24" threat radius marine armies is no problem for a fast / shooty Eldar Army. Again, massing War Walkers is really mean. I can't emphasize that enough. it's lame that it's such an expensive route to go though. 30 bucks a pop... Not that cheap on Ebay either. I also like the idea of letting Eldar cover the mid-field shooting and using Tau for the back line. If they are just used as an ally you can take a squad of Fire Warriors, 3 broadsides (There's your AV-14 answer), 3 standard Battlesuits, and some Battlesuit wearing monster hero. That's a fun battletehc looking force. Supported by the right Eldar units (FAST ONES) this kind of list can table people pretty quickly. Everything is mobile, so fast CC armies aren't as scary as they are to a stagnant gunline army. Also, altough I think they are good, most people I see running Aegis Defense Lines lose!!! It's not actually because of the Aegis Line, rather it's because they are too insistant on using it. it motivates a stagnant playstyle, that may or may not be the most advantageous this game to game. If you have an Aegis Line, great. Don't let it motivate you to stay behind it and shoot, when your units could be doing more elsewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I hadn't really thought about it before, but allying with Dark Angels (don't have BRB in front of me so I'm not sure what their ally status is) could be awesome. If you go with Deathwing, you can put out 3 squads of terminators in an allied faction. That adds some serious survivability to an Eldar list. Wraithguard and Terminators walking up mid-field together could be pretty nasty. Throw in the harlequins, fire dragons, war walkers and a couple seers and youare good to go!!! Plus, the new Dark Angels codex is coming out on the 12th. Could be pretty sweet. Their new flyer looks pretty cool 2.

I think it's really hard to not use fire dragons in 6th edition. They can fly around in their wave serpent and act as fire bridge against drop or go frag annoying LR. They might even live after you spam the termies that come out with enough scatter lasers

I would look to anti heavy tank from bright lance wraithlords and fire dragons. For heavy support, I can't see taking anything other than scatter laser war walkers. At 2K, I'd have three squads of them. Eldrad can guide two of them each turn or perhaps fortune each of them if they have cover. (I'd get them in cover).

IIRC, you can only disembark if you dont move. Which is a bummer because you have to get close, wait, then disembark with the dire dragons. And during the wait turn, the oponent is going to pummel you