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So because wounds work, paying a little extra for a squad sergeant is worth it. You pay extra for that one extra attack, but because he stays there it's usually worth it with melee units.

I'm slowly working my way towards playing a game, but after doing some vaguely related research, I've got another question. What's the point of putting heroes and lords in with a squad? They don't have the same protection as a sergeant, as the attacking player can choose to allocate wounds to them. So how can something like festus the leechlord be that useful? He gives the unit regen, which is nice, but it's gone when he dies, and I'm pretty sure all attacks will be targeted his way once he gets into CC. Is just this a thing with warhammer? Expecting your melee heroes to constantly get into the thick of things with rank and file?

Champions can actually be targeted as well, so there's no difference there.

Heroes definitely are a more endangered species in 8th edition, but there are tricks to keeping them more survivable. If placed on the corner of a unit, you can reduce the number of attacks they take. If your unit is wide enough, you can even keep them out of combat in early rounds- a good idea if the hero is providing a benefit (like Festus) or isn't cut out to fight (like a spellsinger).

Even if the character is in a position to be hit, there's often a risk/reward with directing attacks at the character in question. You may want to kill the character to remove his benefits from the unit you're fighting, and to get his victory points immediately. However, if the character has better protection (good armor, a ward save, higher WS or T) then you may fall too far behind in the general grind of the combat.

Oh I read that wrong.

Ah I see now, so basically champions are going to eat it pretty quickly in the game, but only through direct means. But there is another question. What would indirect means be? The LOS rule makes it confusing as well, stating that it happens when a "template as described above" touches the champion, but I don't see anything about a template.

I see what you mean about placing your heroes correctly. Interesting!

So I guess even a lord can be dragged down by a mob of rank and file if he loses all his supporting troops?

The deal is, most people will simply attack the unit because its not worth it to kill the champion. They risk overkilling him when if they had attacked RnF they would caused some more actual casualities. As a result it is often in effect that the Champion is "untargetable" simply because nobody bothers to attack him deliberatly.

As for heroes tanking hits for a unit, its most common with ogres. This is because Ogre units are usually only 3-4 models wide, unlike other units where it is almost impossable to completely block the RnF from getting attacked. Unless you slap five heroes in one unit.

Generally, if the hero is reasonably survivable the enemy will simply elect to attack the RnF, except for models that due to position can only attack the hero.



One other thing you can use with Champions is to play a denial game. For example with my ogres.

I have a unit of 9 ogre bulls that have been joined by my BSB and my Slaughtermaster.

In combat, I make way with my BSB and SM into the front rank. Leaving the front rank being my 2 characters and the unit champion.

Suddenly, the rank and file Ogres are untouchable, because excess wounds from the Champion don't overflow to the unit.

So my opponent will be forced to divide his attacks up between my 2 characters, that are tooled up to be very survivable. Its tough to put wounds on T5 models with 3+ armor and decent ward saves on them.

Some models will be forced to attack the BSB, others will be forced to attack the SM or BSB, some may only be able to attack the SM, some will be able to pick between the SM and Champ, and finally some may only be able to attack the Champion.

Even if he dumps as many of his attacks as possable into my Champ(the easiest model to kill) he will only score at most 3 wounds. meanwhile my unit fights on unimpaired and gets the kill his unit.




You can play a similar game with 20/25mm based models but you need more heroes to do it.

Another reason to put heroes and lords in a regiment as as a bunker. A Wizard doesn't add to combat, but he sure likes his Look Out Sir protection. It also means they can't be individually targetted by a warmachine - it needs to fire at the regiment. So instead of eating a cannonball, you get the chance to have a normal model eat it.

With some armies, heroes and lords just can't fight well outside of a regiment. For Vampire Counts, the opposing regiments combat resolution will crumble him better than the attacks from the unit. Even a blender vampire needs to be backed up by a regiment or faces death by combat resolution.

indeed, although being in a unit of all too easily killed Skeletons can be the Vampire's bane too. Or any of their elite hitty units.

Vamps have a unit of skeletons tying down an enemy unit. Big nasty Vamp elite units hits the enemy in the flank. Enemy focuses all damage into Skeletons, gets massive Crumble, Elite units dies because of the skeleton's presence in the combat where if they have been alone it wouldn't have been so bad.

Of course Undead armies tend to be Win Big/Lose Big armies.

The problem with vampires is choosing the best unit to bunker them in. They're the punch you add to units to help them out. Either they're too weak (like zombies) and the vampire won't help - indeed will suffer for it. Too strong (like Grave Guard) and not only is the vampire redundant, the unit is more if a fire magnet than usual.

You simply don't keep heroes who can join units outside of units. If you're alone, anything can target you. Ranged attacks, war machines, spells.

In a unit, you can't shoot someone without sniper, you can't war machine them unless they fail a LoS roll which is 1 in 6. If someone challenges you, you can say, no, and move away.

It's why you don't see people sitting on monsters much even though they get a larger commanding presence radius. You can shoot them, war machine them, no LoS, they can't refuse challenges.