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Trillion-dollar coin could let President Obama bypass debt-ceiling impasse
This is insane.
Spoiler:
Trillion-dollar coin could let President Obama bypass debt-ceiling impasse
Far-fetched, perhaps, but it is legal for the Treasury Department to make such a coin. Federal law permits it to mint platinum coins for any amount.
BY KRISTEN A. LEE / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
MONDAY, JANUARY 7, 2013, 6:31 PM Print US MINT/AP
A one-ounce $100 platinum coin, also sold in half-ounce, quarter-ounce and tenth-ounce versions, went on sale to the public in 1997.
Could another standoff over the nation’s debt ceiling be avoided with some loose change?
Advocates for a new trillion dollar platinum coin don’t find that idea so outlandish.
New York Rep. Jerrold Nadler is the most prominent politician arguing that minting a trillion dollar coin to pay some of the nation's debt is a better option than another fight over raising the U.S. debt ceiling that could result in default.
And with Washington bracing for yet another game of brinkmanship in less than two months over the $16 trillion debt limit, the seemingly far-fetched idea seems to be gaining currency.
Influential columnist Paul Krugman argued for minting a coin to avoid default on Monday, saying the U.S. is faced with “a choice between two alternatives: one that’s silly but benign, the other that’s equally silly but both vile and disastrous.”
AFTER LAST-MINUTE FISCAL CLIFF DEAL, PRESIDENT OBAMA STILL FACES BATTLE WITH REPUBLICANS OVER DEBT
The growing chorus pushing for the coin prompted Republican Rep. Greg Walden of Oregon to introduce a bill on Monday to ban the proposal, which he called “absurd and dangerous.”
“My wife and I have owned and operated a small business since 1986. When it came time to pay the bills, we couldn’t just mint a coin to create more money out of thin air,” Walden said. “We sat down and figured out how to balance the books.”
Nadler and other proponents, however, argue that a trillion dollar coin is no more absurd than the debt ceiling itself, which caps the government’s ability to cover spending Congress has already authorized.
The proposal stems from a line in federal law that allows the Treasury Department to “mint and issue platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins” in any size or denomination it chooses.
That loophole, intended to allow for collectors’ coins, theoretically opens the door to the trillion dollar coin.
While platinum is a precious commodity, a platinum coin would have to weigh more than 20,000 tons to have an actual value, when melted, of a trillion dollars. But the face value of no U.S. coin actually matches the value of the metal used to make the coin.
The proposal has been subjected to much mockery on Twitter and in the blogosphere.
Some critics, including a spokesman for House Speaker John Boehner, have noted that the notion of a trillion dollar bill was once covered in an episode of The Simpsons.
A White House petition for a trillion dollar coin had just 5,000 signatures on Monday afternoon, roughly 20,000 short of triggering a response from the Obama administration.
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
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Was so ready to post "The Simpsons did it!" until I got to the part where the article states the same.
Thunder stolen
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
I'm a bit stupid on these matters, but let me get this right.
They want to make a platinum coin, and sell it for 100 bucks, so the government can get out of debt? Isn't that sort of just shifting the debt and not really doing much about it?
“Sometimes I can hear my bones straining under the weight of all the lives I'm not living.”
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
You can't simply print money to make a debt problem go away. Thats what happend in Germany after WW1.
The only way to make coins and sell them to make money would be to have it be hard currency. The government could sell gold coins but that would be no different than just selling gold bullion by the ounce.
Congress needs to stop spending money it doesn't have.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
This idea got thrown around last time the debt ceiling was hit. This time around, given it appears the Republicans are going to attempt to manipulate the need to raise the debt ceiling for their own advantage every time it comes around, it seems at least very well credentialled economist is saying maybe this is silly, but its no less silly and a lot less harmful than freaking out financial markets because one political party is playing chicken with the national economy.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: Any highly trained internet economists have a guess what would happen to the dollar afterwards?
The dollar would deflate, because you'd be putting more dollars into circulation.
But then the treasury has been actively pumping more dollars into circulation since the GFC, to counter the deflation, maintain demand and increase international competitiveness (for the first it worked a treat, for the latter two it achieved little and was never going to because monetary policy is ineffective in promoting demand... as we've known since the 1950s).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: You can't simply print money to make a debt problem go away. Thats what happend in Germany after WW1.
Yeah, if you just print more money almost unrestrained then you get hyper inflation. Good thing no-one is talking about just straight up printing as much money as government can print, so that's completely pointless.
Congress needs to stop spending money it doesn't have.
People who don't understand economics need to stop talking about it.
These kinds of general notions of good household budgeting just do not work when it comes to economies, because they are not the same thing. Your household has an income, if it goes down it makes good sense to spend less money, because how much you earn is independant of how much you spend. But in an economy that isn't true, what you spend is what I earn, and what I spend is what you earn.
So when the government says 'egads, there's a financial shock and tax revenues are falling, better cut spending to balance the books' what you see is further reductions in economic activity, leading to further reductions in tax revenue, and so less government spending and all the way down the spiral until you hit a great depression.
The correct government response is known and has been well-established for generations now - government undertakes deficit spending to maintain aggregate demand until normal economic activity has been restored.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/09 06:39:11
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
The coin idea is basically just the Democrats coming up with a way to prevent the Republicans from using the entire American economy as a hostage -again. By introducing a near-as-crazy-as-defaulting-on-the-debt solution, it presents an option that is not as harmful as the game of chicken that the GOP wants to play, and therefore takes away any and all negotiating leverage the GOP hopes to have.
Trillion-dollar coin could let President Obama bypass debt-ceiling impasse
This is insane.
Spoiler:
Trillion-dollar coin could let President Obama bypass debt-ceiling impasse
Far-fetched, perhaps, but it is legal for the Treasury Department to make such a coin. Federal law permits it to mint platinum coins for any amount.
BY KRISTEN A. LEE / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
MONDAY, JANUARY 7, 2013, 6:31 PM Print US MINT/AP
A one-ounce $100 platinum coin, also sold in half-ounce, quarter-ounce and tenth-ounce versions, went on sale to the public in 1997.
Could another standoff over the nation’s debt ceiling be avoided with some loose change?
Advocates for a new trillion dollar platinum coin don’t find that idea so outlandish.
New York Rep. Jerrold Nadler is the most prominent politician arguing that minting a trillion dollar coin to pay some of the nation's debt is a better option than another fight over raising the U.S. debt ceiling that could result in default.
And with Washington bracing for yet another game of brinkmanship in less than two months over the $16 trillion debt limit, the seemingly far-fetched idea seems to be gaining currency.
Influential columnist Paul Krugman argued for minting a coin to avoid default on Monday, saying the U.S. is faced with “a choice between two alternatives: one that’s silly but benign, the other that’s equally silly but both vile and disastrous.”
AFTER LAST-MINUTE FISCAL CLIFF DEAL, PRESIDENT OBAMA STILL FACES BATTLE WITH REPUBLICANS OVER DEBT
The growing chorus pushing for the coin prompted Republican Rep. Greg Walden of Oregon to introduce a bill on Monday to ban the proposal, which he called “absurd and dangerous.”
“My wife and I have owned and operated a small business since 1986. When it came time to pay the bills, we couldn’t just mint a coin to create more money out of thin air,” Walden said. “We sat down and figured out how to balance the books.”
Nadler and other proponents, however, argue that a trillion dollar coin is no more absurd than the debt ceiling itself, which caps the government’s ability to cover spending Congress has already authorized.
The proposal stems from a line in federal law that allows the Treasury Department to “mint and issue platinum bullion coins and proof platinum coins” in any size or denomination it chooses.
That loophole, intended to allow for collectors’ coins, theoretically opens the door to the trillion dollar coin.
While platinum is a precious commodity, a platinum coin would have to weigh more than 20,000 tons to have an actual value, when melted, of a trillion dollars. But the face value of no U.S. coin actually matches the value of the metal used to make the coin.
The proposal has been subjected to much mockery on Twitter and in the blogosphere.
Some critics, including a spokesman for House Speaker John Boehner, have noted that the notion of a trillion dollar bill was once covered in an episode of The Simpsons.
A White House petition for a trillion dollar coin had just 5,000 signatures on Monday afternoon, roughly 20,000 short of triggering a response from the Obama administration.
Go for it. Every third world banana republic needs a Dear Leader with a trillion dollar coin.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
People who don't understand economics need to stop talking about it.
These kinds of general notions of good household budgeting just do not work when it comes to economies, because they are not the same thing. Your household has an income, if it goes down it makes good sense to spend less money, because how much you earn is independant of how much you spend. But in an economy that isn't true, what you spend is what I earn, and what I spend is what you earn.
So when the government says 'egads, there's a financial shock and tax revenues are falling, better cut spending to balance the books' what you see is further reductions in economic activity, leading to further reductions in tax revenue, and so less government spending and all the way down the spiral until you hit a great depression.
The correct government response is known and has been well-established for generations now - government undertakes deficit spending to maintain aggregate demand until normal economic activity has been restored.
I have really missed your particular brand of comedy, sebster.
azazel the cat wrote: The coin idea is basically just the Democrats coming up with a way to prevent the Republicans from using the entire American economy as a hostage -again. By introducing a near-as-crazy-as-defaulting-on-the-debt solution, it presents an option that is not as harmful as the game of chicken that the GOP wants to play, and therefore takes away any and all negotiating leverage the GOP hopes to have.
It's really a brilliant play.
QFT...
But, after reading how this all works... it's interesting.
The process is called "Coin Seignorage".
For the Platinum process works like this (legally, you can't do this with most other precious metals):
-A platinum coin or coins (!! egads!) would be minted and deposited in the US Mint’s Public Enterprise Fund (PEF) at the Fed, where it would be credited for their full legal tender face value, as determined by the Sec of Treasury's discretion. That's the true power of a sovereign government... to arbitrarily assign a fiat value to a coin, regardless how much the raw material is worth. (ie, coin is physically worth $20 to make, but it's legal tender can be $1 trillion)
-The Treasury would then “sweep” the profits (technical term I think), which is the difference between the cost to the Mint of producing the coin and face value of the coin into the Treasury general Account (TGA) at the Federal Reserve. This is how it normally works for any denominations.
-Again, the face value of the coin can be whatever the Treasury Sec/Mint chooses... there is no requirement that the coin weight be related to the face value. So, it could be $1 trillion or more, or less if preferred. This is all perfectly legal. o.O Keep in mind, this is how our currency works.
- So, the remaining balance is sitting in basically the Treasury Dept's bank account (far away from debt limit), which they would be used to retire existing debts and pay for current congressional appropriated budgets. The argument is that (which I disagree) the inflationary pressure wouldn't change since the Treasury won't spend any more than what Congress has already appropriated. There's no new *sudden* $$$ released in the currency market. My retort is that... now that the Treasury Dept's piggy bank has lots of ones and zeros... what's to prevent Congress from spending even more?
-Crazy option... would rather the Prez to take on Congress in court regarding the debt limit rather than creating more monopoly money.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
It utterly ignores the inflationary effects of such an action.
However, I am all for it. I've always wondered what living in the Weimar Republic would be like, and I'm digging the concept of a follow on government with cool snazzy uniforms and lots of neat parades.
Watch out Americas, we need need living room!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
The correct government response is known and has been well-established for generations now - government undertakes deficit spending to maintain aggregate demand until normal economic activity has been restored.
We had a government try that over here. End result: our national debt doubled and we needed a bailout from the EU and the FMI...
That "correct government response" landed us in the worst crisis since 1978!
The correct government response is known and has been well-established for generations now - government undertakes deficit spending to maintain aggregate demand until normal economic activity has been restored.
We had a government try that over here. End result: our national debt doubled and we needed a bailout from the EU and the FMI...
That "correct government response" landed us in the worst crisis since 1978!
I think the real question should be.. .how much government intervention (spending/borrowing) should we have...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/09 17:09:08
Frazzled wrote: It utterly ignores the inflationary effects of such an action.
Just to be a devil's advocate... how?.
When more money is put into circulation the total value of each individual unit of money is devalued. Exactly the same as if it were any other durable good. If there is more of an item its value will decrease.
If someone were to dump thousands and thousands of Ferraris on the market the value of said car would go down. The same applies to money. Note that this applies to both Fiat money and currency thats backed by valuable material/is made of valuable material.
This move is no different to post-WW1 germany printing trillions of marks.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
The correct government response is known and has been well-established for generations now - government undertakes deficit spending to maintain aggregate demand until normal economic activity has been restored.
We had a government try that over here. End result: our national debt doubled and we needed a bailout from the EU and the FMI...
That "correct government response" landed us in the worst crisis since 1978!
I think the real question should be.. .how much government intervention (spending/borrowing) should we have...
Like it is now, but on a grand scale. The value of the dollar ideclining, driving greater inflation. The price of gasoline is an excellent example, but try anything right now.
Again we have excellent examples of what happens when you pull such stunts. 1970s US, Argentina, Zimbabwe etc. etc.
Its just another method of inflating yourself out of the debt.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Frazzled wrote: It utterly ignores the inflationary effects of such an action.
Just to be a devil's advocate... how?.
When more money is put into circulation the total value of each individual unit of money is devalued. Exactly the same as if it were any other durable good. If there is more of an item its value will decrease.
If someone were to dump thousands and thousands of Ferraris on the market the value of said car would go down. The same applies to money. Note that this applies to both Fiat money and currency thats backed by valuable material/is made of valuable material.
This move is no different to post-WW1 germany printing trillions of marks.
Yeah... I understand the basic premise of inflationary pressure...
The german trillion $ marks were actually released into the market.
The argument about Seignorage is that it doesn't release any additional currency into the market (ie, it's not like the stimulus check we got years ago).
This "plan" only fills the Treasury's coffers. (as a way to circumvent the debt limit, which is the intent of this action). However much the Treasury's coffers has (tax revenue + borrowed $$$) doesn't in itself create inflationary pressure to the currency market. The Treasury can only use the money to retire any debt, service the mandatory spending and fund the congressional appropriations. This is the key distinction.
Now, if Congress continues to spend in an increasing rate (relative to GDP) knowing that they'll never hit that debt ceiling, then THAT'LL definitely create inflationary pressures.
I disagree with this strategy as you'd have to believe that at least the bond market and the "market confidence" on US dollars would take massive hits...
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Except money in the Treasury is still in circulation. Thats why it won't work.
Using it to pay off debt is no different to them using it to pay for SS or Medicare.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Except money in the Treasury is still in circulation. Thats why it won't work.
Using it to pay off debt is no different to them using it to pay for SS or Medicare.
Exactly.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Grey Templar wrote: Except money in the Treasury is still in circulation. Thats why it won't work.
Using it to pay off debt is no different to them using it to pay for SS or Medicare.
*Devil's advocate hat on*
Money in Treasury isn't necessarily in circulation until it's spent. (which, admittedly... it's the same because the Treasury doesn't have anything in the bank...hence why it's borrowing).
Any rise in inflation would be due to Congressional appropriations relative to revenues becoming inflationary rather than the effect of this whacky plan. Again, the Treasury can't spend any more than what it's authorized to do.
*Devil's advocate hat off*
Whembly's 3 part plan:
1) Repeal ACA act.
2) Institute full single-payor healthcare (ala, Canada)
3) Using the Simpson/Bowles plan (minus the healthcare part) to pay down debt
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Partly true, but of course the Government is going to spend it. For money to have any effect it must be in circulation, out of circulation money is just useless trash with no value other than what the material is worth.
Regardless, it will cause inflation. And quite a bit of it too.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
People who don't understand economics need to stop talking about it.
These kinds of general notions of good household budgeting just do not work when it comes to economies, because they are not the same thing. Your household has an income, if it goes down it makes good sense to spend less money, because how much you earn is independant of how much you spend. But in an economy that isn't true, what you spend is what I earn, and what I spend is what you earn.
Can you explain how exactly to me? Because it doesnt make sense. If the Gov only makes, say $10 a year from tax payers, how can they spend $15? Thats how it works with households, and businesses as well. You cant really spend more money then you make, and if you do, creditors come and take your things away until youre even stevens again.
So cliff notes please, but you ALWAYS seem to counter argue with this logic, and the things you say never ever make sense to me. I keep coming back to "Well they are spending more then they are making....by a gak load"
The argument is that the government can keeping borrowing the difference. The problem is the argument doesn't work. Eventually lenders start demanding higher rates, quit lending, or you run out of lenders.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yup, there is actually a limit to how much the government can realistically borrow.
Having the government's ability to tax as backup for the loan is a good solid deal, but it really can only go so far. And more people have to lend than borrow. Otherwise we end up where there simply isn't money to borrow anymore.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
People who don't understand economics need to stop talking about it.
These kinds of general notions of good household budgeting just do not work when it comes to economies, because they are not the same thing. Your household has an income, if it goes down it makes good sense to spend less money, because how much you earn is independant of how much you spend. But in an economy that isn't true, what you spend is what I earn, and what I spend is what you earn.
Can you explain how exactly to me? Because it doesnt make sense. If the Gov only makes, say $10 a year from tax payers, how can they spend $15? Thats how it works with households, and businesses as well. You cant really spend more money then you make, and if you do, creditors come and take your things away until youre even stevens again.
So cliff notes please, but you ALWAYS seem to counter argue with this logic, and the things you say never ever make sense to me. I keep coming back to "Well they are spending more then they are making....by a gak load"
Note:
-Debt Limit was defined in some 1917 act.
-Congress controls the purse string (ie, keep it close or open)
-Congress delegated the coinage making to US Treasury/Mint
-Congress delegated the Treasury to borrow money if necessary to fund congressional appropriations
Having said that... let's take your example:
1) Gov recieves $10 /year in tax revenue
2) Congress passed laws/spending/paying current debt, that amounts to a total of $15 /year
3) The Treasury is empowered to issue bonds for $5
4) The Treasury realizes that they've exceeded their debt limit and can only borrow $2
5) Prez and Congress critters goes WTF?
I have to imagine the dollar will be devalued with this stunt anyway: How interested would you be in using dollars as your reserve currency if you saw the government doing stupid accounting tricks like this?
On the other hand, another fight over the debt ceiling is also a big problem. I don't know what to do about this, really. Ideally congress would stop passing spending bills they'd later choose not to fund.
However, since they have like 12% approval rating and nearly always get re-elected, clearly the electorate is happy with these choices.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Realistically.....how difficult and more over, what would it take, to put the voting system back into the hands of the people. IE X politician received 2 million counted votes, and Y politician received 2.7 million counted votes. Y is our new whatever. Rather then, hey you received the popular vote, but tough cookies friend, I won more electorate votes.
Frazzled wrote: The argument is that the government can keeping borrowing the difference. The problem is the argument doesn't work. Eventually lenders start demanding higher rates, quit lending, or you run out of lenders.
The argument works perfectly fine, as it isn't based on a perpetual set of practices.
Of course, it also helps that you have ~23% of nominal global GDP subject to your economic policy.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
