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Can manticores fire as normal during night fight?

Can any unit shoot over 36" in night fight even if the target has been search lighted? Night fighting appears to restrict the firer. Search lights appear only to remove the effects for the target.

Sure but they can't target anything over 36" away.

rigeld2 wrote:
Sure but they can't target anything over 36" away.

even if the target gets search lighted?

Since you ignore Night Fight rules if the target is lit up...

rigeld2 wrote:
Since you ignore Night Fight rules if the target is lit up...

It states the shooting unit cannot pick a target over 36" away. Search light says target unit loses benifits of night fight but is the shooting unit still unable to shoot over 36"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In a game can anyone help shed light on this? haha

If something is lit up with a Searchlight it can be targeted from over 36"

You do have to have gotten the Searchlight wielding model close enough to have hit the model(so within 36") in the first place. They spot the enemy and everything else can light him up.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If something is lit up with a Searchlight it can be targeted from over 36"

You do have to have gotten the Searchlight wielding model close enough to have hit the model(so within 36") in the first place. They spot the enemy and everything else can light him up.

Minor addendum- you have to be both within 36" (max visual range during Night Fight) and within max weapon range. If you're not in weapon range, you're not allowed to shoot, and if you're not shooting you don't get to use your Searchlight. This makes them a bit less useful on my Furioso dreadnought than on my Razorbacks.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If something is lit up with a Searchlight it can be targeted from over 36"

You do have to have gotten the Searchlight wielding model close enough to have hit the model(so within 36") in the first place. They spot the enemy and everything else can light him up.

Minor addendum- you have to be both within 36" (max visual range during Night Fight) and within max weapon range. If you're not in weapon range, you're not allowed to shoot, and if you're not shooting you don't get to use your Searchlight. This makes them a bit less useful on my Furioso dreadnought than on my Razorbacks.

The only issue is night fight puts a restriction on the firing model. At least that is how I read it. Searchlights take away the benefits of night fight for the target. But the firing model is still suffering nightfight which has a 36" range restriction.

Only the model thats doing the Searchlighting.

Chimera drives forward and shoots its multi-laser at a Predator tank. It can't hurt it but it gets a hit, activating the Searchlight.

Now the Manticore in the backlines can shoot the Predator, even though its over 36" away, because his Chimera buddy lit it up for him.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Only the model thats doing the Searchlighting.

Chimera drives forward and shoots its multi-laser at a Predator tank. It can't hurt it but it gets a hit, activating the Searchlight.

Now the Manticore in the backlines can shoot the Predator, even though its over 36" away, because his Chimera buddy lit it up for him.

lol i get that. page 124 states The shooting unit cannot pick a target more then 36" away while night fighting is in effect. That means regardless of a searchlight which only removes the benifit for the target aka the cover save. The unit still wouldnt be able to shoot something over 36" away.

This isnt even pointing out the laughable fact that the manticore doesnt need line of sight to shoot its target so shining light on it would not help fluff wise lmao.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Only the model thats doing the Searchlighting.

Chimera drives forward and shoots its multi-laser at a Predator tank. It can't hurt it but it gets a hit, activating the Searchlight.

Now the Manticore in the backlines can shoot the Predator, even though its over 36" away, because his Chimera buddy lit it up for him.

lol i get that. page 124 states The shooting unit cannot pick a target more then 36" away while night fighting is in effect. That means regardless of a searchlight which only removes the benifit for the target aka the cover save. The unit still wouldnt be able to shoot something over 36" away.

This isnt even pointing out the laughable fact that the manticore doesnt need line of sight to shoot its target so shining light on it would not help fluff wise lmao.

Its not so laughable because a unit more than 36 inches away is to hindered by the darkness so since it cant be seen then no body in the army would be able to give coordinates for the manticore to fire. Logically thinking would you waste ammo firing missiles off out in the dark if you dont know something is there. Yes the manticore doesnt need line of sight but fluff wise there would actually be some Infantry or scout unit that would pinpoint enemy locations and relay them to the manticore units so that they can fire their missiles off into the air and barrage the enemy. It makes sense if you think about it. If no one can see it then you shouldnt be wasting ammo firing missiles off into the dark lol.

tankboy145 wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Only the model thats doing the Searchlighting.

Chimera drives forward and shoots its multi-laser at a Predator tank. It can't hurt it but it gets a hit, activating the Searchlight.

Now the Manticore in the backlines can shoot the Predator, even though its over 36" away, because his Chimera buddy lit it up for him.

lol i get that. page 124 states The shooting unit cannot pick a target more then 36" away while night fighting is in effect. That means regardless of a searchlight which only removes the benifit for the target aka the cover save. The unit still wouldnt be able to shoot something over 36" away.

This isnt even pointing out the laughable fact that the manticore doesnt need line of sight to shoot its target so shining light on it would not help fluff wise lmao.

Its not so laughable because a unit more than 36 inches away is to hindered by the darkness so since it cant be seen then no body in the army would be able to give coordinates for the manticore to fire. Logically thinking would you waste ammo firing missiles off out in the dark if you dont know something is there. Yes the manticore doesnt need line of sight but fluff wise there would actually be some Infantry or scout unit that would pinpoint enemy locations and relay them to the manticore units so that they can fire their missiles off into the air and barrage the enemy. It makes sense if you think about it. If no one can see it then you shouldnt be wasting ammo firing missiles off into the dark lol.

Its called carpet bombing and bombardment. We do it all the time. lol. But more or so just trying to clarify the night fight rule which effects more then just the target.

RAW currently a model can still only shoot 36" when night fight is in effect. Regardless if the target is search lighted or not.

Oh i know but generally when a carpet bomb or bombardment is called in its because some one physically saw the enemy and in and gave coordinates of where the enemy was. That would be the fluff aspect in 40k, if you cant see it then technically nothing is their.

Also since everything has a 36 inch range due to night fight most of the time if something is search lighted it wont be any further away than anything else So generally you will never be shooting over the 36 inch range anyways.

tankboy145 wrote:
Oh i know but generally when a carpet bomb or bombardment is called in its because some one physically saw the enemy and in and gave coordinates of where the enemy was. That would be the fluff aspect in 40k, if you cant see it then technically nothing is their.

Also since everything has a 36 inch range due to night fight most of the time if something is search lighted it wont be any further away than anything else So generally you will never be shooting over the 36 inch range anyways.

Some vehicles have a rangee greater then 36" and will be farther then that when shooting. Does anyone find my reasoning to be incorrect that no matter what while night fight is in effect nothing can shoot further then 36"?

You can

When you pick a target is when you determine whether night fighting is in effect, for a target that has been searchlit, the rules for nightfighting are not in effect ( a unit that is searchlit loses all benefits of the nightfighting special rule, being unable to be seen past 36 inches is a benefit), and as such you are able to choose a target greater than 36 inches away as per normal.

I see your RAW point on the benefit to the target (the cover save boost) versus the restriction on the firer, however I think it's still pretty clear here that yes, you can choose a target over 36 inches away that has been searchlit.

Target wrote:
You can

When you pick a target is when you determine whether night fighting is in effect, for a target that has been searchlit, the rules for nightfighting are not in effect ( a unit that is searchlit loses all benefits of the nightfighting special rule, being unable to be seen past 36 inches is a benefit), and as such you are able to choose a target greater than 36 inches away as per normal.

I see your RAW point on the benefit to the target (the cover save boost) versus the restriction on the firer, however I think it's still pretty clear here that yes, you can choose a target over 36 inches away that has been searchlit.

My raw point pg 124 the bolded print. The Shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away. This is a restriction to the shooting unit regardless of what the target is/has.

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:
You can

When you pick a target is when you determine whether night fighting is in effect, for a target that has been searchlit, the rules for nightfighting are not in effect ( a unit that is searchlit loses all benefits of the nightfighting special rule, being unable to be seen past 36 inches is a benefit), and as such you are able to choose a target greater than 36 inches away as per normal.

I see your RAW point on the benefit to the target (the cover save boost) versus the restriction on the firer, however I think it's still pretty clear here that yes, you can choose a target over 36 inches away that has been searchlit.

My raw point pg 124 the bolded print. The Shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away. This is a restriction to the shooting unit regardless of what the target is/has.

True, but that's under the rule of nightfighting, which the target no longer gets the benefit of. If night fighting doesn't apply, that restriction doesn't apply.

Target wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:
You can

When you pick a target is when you determine whether night fighting is in effect, for a target that has been searchlit, the rules for nightfighting are not in effect ( a unit that is searchlit loses all benefits of the nightfighting special rule, being unable to be seen past 36 inches is a benefit), and as such you are able to choose a target greater than 36 inches away as per normal.

I see your RAW point on the benefit to the target (the cover save boost) versus the restriction on the firer, however I think it's still pretty clear here that yes, you can choose a target over 36 inches away that has been searchlit.

My raw point pg 124 the bolded print. The Shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away. This is a restriction to the shooting unit regardless of what the target is/has.

True, but that's under the rule of nightfighting, which the target no longer gets the benefit of. If night fighting doesn't apply, that restriction doesn't apply.

I understand the target no longer gets the benefit. My argument is that night fight puts a general restriction that no unit can fire at a target over 36". The is a restriction on the firing unit. Not the target. The target wouldnt get any cover save but would still be out of range due to night fight affecting all firing units.

The target is no longer in darkness, it has been "illuminated" per the searchlight rules. Does light stop travelling at 36" even if the rest of the battlefield is in darkness? um, no.

The Searchlight rule starts off saying "Searchlights are often fitted to vehicles so that the foe cannot use darkness as an ally". Seems pretty clear that they mean the target can now be clearly seen by everyone.

The wording in the rule says to "illuminate its target" and that due to the illumination those units (both the initial firer and target) no longer gain benefits from Night Fighting.

For game purposes this essentially means that the target unit no longer falls under the Night Fighting special rules for a turn.

The targeting rule, says "The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away -- such units are completely hidden in the darkness". This is still a benefit of the targeted unit that is still in darkness.

However, the target is no longer hidden by darkness; it has been illuminated and therefore can't take any benefit of Night Fighting. Therefore this rule no longer applies for that unit.

clively wrote:
The target is no longer in darkness, it has been "illuminated" per the searchlight rules. Does light stop travelling at 36" even if the rest of the battlefield is in darkness? um, no.

Actually, yes. Light particles from a beam diffuse over distance into essentially nothing due to the atmosphere. It makes complete sense. Ever tried shining a laser pointer at a far object and noticing that the red dot doesn't appear?

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:
You can

When you pick a target is when you determine whether night fighting is in effect, for a target that has been searchlit, the rules for nightfighting are not in effect ( a unit that is searchlit loses all benefits of the nightfighting special rule, being unable to be seen past 36 inches is a benefit), and as such you are able to choose a target greater than 36 inches away as per normal.

I see your RAW point on the benefit to the target (the cover save boost) versus the restriction on the firer, however I think it's still pretty clear here that yes, you can choose a target over 36 inches away that has been searchlit.

My raw point pg 124 the bolded print. The Shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away. This is a restriction to the shooting unit regardless of what the target is/has.

True, but that's under the rule of nightfighting, which the target no longer gets the benefit of. If night fighting doesn't apply, that restriction doesn't apply.

I understand the target no longer gets the benefit. My argument is that night fight puts a general restriction that no unit can fire at a target over 36". The is a restriction on the firing unit. Not the target. The target wouldnt get any cover save but would still be out of range due to night fight affecting all firing units.

I get what you're saying - what I'm saying is that for the firing unit, night fighting isn't even in effect, because it's picked a unit that is not under the effects of night fighting.

Target wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:
You can

When you pick a target is when you determine whether night fighting is in effect, for a target that has been searchlit, the rules for nightfighting are not in effect ( a unit that is searchlit loses all benefits of the nightfighting special rule, being unable to be seen past 36 inches is a benefit), and as such you are able to choose a target greater than 36 inches away as per normal.

I see your RAW point on the benefit to the target (the cover save boost) versus the restriction on the firer, however I think it's still pretty clear here that yes, you can choose a target over 36 inches away that has been searchlit.

My raw point pg 124 the bolded print. The Shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away. This is a restriction to the shooting unit regardless of what the target is/has.

True, but that's under the rule of nightfighting, which the target no longer gets the benefit of. If night fighting doesn't apply, that restriction doesn't apply.

I understand the target no longer gets the benefit. My argument is that night fight puts a general restriction that no unit can fire at a target over 36". The is a restriction on the firing unit. Not the target. The target wouldnt get any cover save but would still be out of range due to night fight affecting all firing units.

I get what you're saying - what I'm saying is that for the firing unit, night fighting isn't even in effect, because it's picked a unit that is not under the effects of night fighting.

Except every unit is affected by night fight while the rule is in effect. That is why searchlights work both ways. I see nothing that removes the 36" limitation from the firing unit. RAW units cannot shoot over 36" during night fight.

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:
You can

When you pick a target is when you determine whether night fighting is in effect, for a target that has been searchlit, the rules for nightfighting are not in effect ( a unit that is searchlit loses all benefits of the nightfighting special rule, being unable to be seen past 36 inches is a benefit), and as such you are able to choose a target greater than 36 inches away as per normal.

I see your RAW point on the benefit to the target (the cover save boost) versus the restriction on the firer, however I think it's still pretty clear here that yes, you can choose a target over 36 inches away that has been searchlit.

My raw point pg 124 the bolded print. The Shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away. This is a restriction to the shooting unit regardless of what the target is/has.

True, but that's under the rule of nightfighting, which the target no longer gets the benefit of. If night fighting doesn't apply, that restriction doesn't apply.

I understand the target no longer gets the benefit. My argument is that night fight puts a general restriction that no unit can fire at a target over 36". The is a restriction on the firing unit. Not the target. The target wouldnt get any cover save but would still be out of range due to night fight affecting all firing units.

I get what you're saying - what I'm saying is that for the firing unit, night fighting isn't even in effect, because it's picked a unit that is not under the effects of night fighting.

Except every unit is affected by night fight while the rule is in effect. That is why searchlights work both ways. I see nothing that removes the 36" limitation from the firing unit. RAW units cannot shoot over 36" during night fight.

I see your point, but I do think it's a bit of an esoteric debate - I can't imagine any tournament/etc. where it would be played that way. Which I realize doesn't affect the rule, but is relevant if we're talking about what to expect in game play.

Target wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:
You can

When you pick a target is when you determine whether night fighting is in effect, for a target that has been searchlit, the rules for nightfighting are not in effect ( a unit that is searchlit loses all benefits of the nightfighting special rule, being unable to be seen past 36 inches is a benefit), and as such you are able to choose a target greater than 36 inches away as per normal.

I see your RAW point on the benefit to the target (the cover save boost) versus the restriction on the firer, however I think it's still pretty clear here that yes, you can choose a target over 36 inches away that has been searchlit.

My raw point pg 124 the bolded print. The Shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away. This is a restriction to the shooting unit regardless of what the target is/has.

True, but that's under the rule of nightfighting, which the target no longer gets the benefit of. If night fighting doesn't apply, that restriction doesn't apply.

I understand the target no longer gets the benefit. My argument is that night fight puts a general restriction that no unit can fire at a target over 36". The is a restriction on the firing unit. Not the target. The target wouldnt get any cover save but would still be out of range due to night fight affecting all firing units.

I get what you're saying - what I'm saying is that for the firing unit, night fighting isn't even in effect, because it's picked a unit that is not under the effects of night fighting.

Except every unit is affected by night fight while the rule is in effect. That is why searchlights work both ways. I see nothing that removes the 36" limitation from the firing unit. RAW units cannot shoot over 36" during night fight.

I see your point, but I do think it's a bit of an esoteric debate - I can't imagine any tournament/etc. where it would be played that way. Which I realize doesn't affect the rule, but is relevant if we're talking about what to expect in game play.

Well esoteric or not IG is my main army and a lot of my range can be well over 36" and if I am shooting those weapons I usually want to shoot them from as close to max range as possible. I could see this ruled in favor of 36" as max range due to the wording of night fighting. The main benefit of search lights is they remove the cover save provided by night fight.

While I don't think anyone actually plays this way, it does appear that a lit enemy cannot be targeted if over 36" away. The no targets over 36"is a restriction on the firing unit, not a benefit of night fighting; similar to how No FNP from ID is a restriction on FNP and not an effect of ID (which is why EW models cannot use FNP, even though they ignore the effects of ID).