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Hey chaps,

My friends had this situation pop up the other week and I thought I would seek the help of you Dakkaites.

Player A had a GK psychic power that removed models as a casualty with no saves of any kind allowed (I believe it tested on Toughness or Initiative) but my IG friend argued he would still get his Inv save. I haven't neither Codex at hand as I am at work but I ruled in favour of the GK Codex as it was worded as if it didn't cause a Wound just simply removed the model?

Any ideas fellas?

Hmm. Im not sure. How is the power worded exactly? Psychic Shriek from the Telepathy power table for example, states it causes automatic wounds, with no armour or cover saves allowed. So inv saves can still be taken.

Sorry to say, but I do not see the confusion in the way you typed it.

Ability reads: "No saves of any kind allowed!"
Player goes: "But I will use this save!"

I'd facepalm, because when no saves if any kind are allowed that includes invulnerable saves

That is the way I read it Kangodo. I will bring it up again with him tonight. If the power was used against me then I would have no problem taking the model off even if it had a Inv.

HerbaciousT - I can't remember off the top of my head which piece of wargear/power it was. I think it may have been a template weapon that tested against Initiative and simply stated models were removed with no saves of any kind allowed.

I suspect the power used was one of the Libby powers called Warp Rift, which does indeed remove one model from under the Template for every Initiative test failed with "no saving throws allowed". An inv save is still a saving throw so I suspect your oppo was wrong.

The power is called Warprift and says "for every test failed, one model is removed as a casualty with no saving throws allowed." Pretty clear, the IG player is wrong....tell him to suck it up, IG die....thats what they do.

I'm with others here. "no saves of any kind allowed" is a pretty specific rule denying rolling for invulnerable, cover or armor.

Sounds like the game must have been going badly for the IG player.

Just so it's totally clear, the wording of the rule doesn't actually contain the phrase "of any kind", just "no saves allowed" but I think it's still evidence enough to disallow an inv. save; if they had intended to allow them, surely the wording would have been "no armour saves allowed" ?

The power allows no saves of any kind, you are simply removed from play.

No saves of any kind means exactly that. No saves. Invulnerable saves are, believe it or not, saves. Therefor are disallowed.

HarryLeChien wrote:
I suspect the power used was one of the Libby powers called Warp Rift, which does indeed remove one model from under the Template for every Initiative test failed with "no saving throws allowed". An inv save is still a saving throw so I suspect your oppo was wrong.

It removes one model from the unit, not from under the template.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

HarryLeChien wrote:
I suspect the power used was one of the Libby powers called Warp Rift, which does indeed remove one model from under the Template for every Initiative test failed with "no saving throws allowed". An inv save is still a saving throw so I suspect your oppo was wrong.

It removes one model from the unit, not from under the template.

Actually, every model under the template takes an Initiative test. If they fail it, they are removed with no saves allowed. The wording makes it sound that you roll Init for each model under the template one by one and remove them as necessary. Since no wounds are actually inflicted (they are just removed), you do not need to follow the standard procedure for wound allocation from closest to the firer. Additionally, I don't think this allows for the triggering of FNP either as a result.

i play IG and GK, the GK power is warp rift i think, so if you fail an initiative test you remove the model as a casualty with no saves allowed,

but yes, you do get to make and inv save, since if you look at the rule book, inv are taken, even against weapons that dont allow saves


Automatically Appended Next Post:
it is confusing though, but if you read the inv save rule where it says you can take it even against things that say no saves allowed, then it makes more sense.

easysauce wrote:
i play IG and GK, the GK power is warp rift i think, so if you fail an initiative test you remove the model as a casualty with no saves allowed,

but yes, you do get to make and inv save, since if you look at the rule book, inv are taken, even against weapons that dont allow saves

That's NOT what the rulebook says (see page 17 & 26).
It says they can be taken even when ARMOUR saves can't.
Warp rift allows no saves (saves being 3 types: Armour, Invulnerable and Cover).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

easysauce wrote:
it is confusing though, but if you read the inv save rule where it says you can take it even against things that say no saves allowed, then it makes more sense.

It's not confusing, the rulebook doesn't say that. Says Armour saves.

easysauce wrote:
i play IG and GK, the GK power is warp rift i think, so if you fail an initiative test you remove the model as a casualty with no saves allowed,

but yes, you do get to make and inv save, since if you look at the rule book, inv are taken, even against weapons that dont allow saves

The Orange Text in the quote above is incorrect.

The line is "Even if a Wound ignores all armour saves, an invulnerable saving throw can still be taken." P. 17

The underlined being the part you missed.

If it says No saves allowed, then you can not use armor, cover, or invuln saves, as those are the three types of 'Saves'.

"no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+." P. 19

Notice there are three types of saves.

dont have rules in front of me, deathreaper, so very likely im wrong if they are infront of you.

so yes if it says in "can be taken even even when the weapon doesnt allow armour saves" then no no inv saves

which is great, because I take this power for my gk's, and its awesome, instant death auto hit, and 50/50 chance to do so? yes please!

 Enigwolf wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

HarryLeChien wrote:
I suspect the power used was one of the Libby powers called Warp Rift, which does indeed remove one model from under the Template for every Initiative test failed with "no saving throws allowed". An inv save is still a saving throw so I suspect your oppo was wrong.

It removes one model from the unit, not from under the template.

Actually, every model under the template takes an Initiative test. If they fail it, they are removed with no saves allowed. The wording makes it sound that you roll Init for each model under the template one by one and remove them as necessary. Since no wounds are actually inflicted (they are just removed), you do not need to follow the standard procedure for wound allocation from closest to the firer. Additionally, I don't think this allows for the triggering of FNP either as a result.

Again, no, it removes one model from the unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

HarryLeChien wrote:
I suspect the power used was one of the Libby powers called Warp Rift, which does indeed remove one model from under the Template for every Initiative test failed with "no saving throws allowed". An inv save is still a saving throw so I suspect your oppo was wrong.

It removes one model from the unit, not from under the template.

Actually, every model under the template takes an Initiative test. If they fail it, they are removed with no saves allowed. The wording makes it sound that you roll Init for each model under the template one by one and remove them as necessary. Since no wounds are actually inflicted (they are just removed), you do not need to follow the standard procedure for wound allocation from closest to the firer. Additionally, I don't think this allows for the triggering of FNP either as a result.

Again, no, it removes one model from the unit.

Page 25, Codex: Grey Knights, Librarian Psychic Powers - Warp Rift:

"* The target unit must take an Initiative test for each non-vehicle model hit. For every test that is failed, one model is removed as a casualty with no saving throws allowed. Vehicles hit take a single penetrating hit."

I will correct myself in that I am wrong in my process thus far of rolling Init for each model and then removing it, as the way it is worded makes it sound as if it should still follow traditional wound allocation, but the number of models removed from the unit is equal to the number of failed Init tests - I'm not sure if we were simply misunderstanding each other's wordings here and meant the same thing?

I was correcting your assertion that a model under the template is removed; one model is removed from the unit for every failed test, nowhere does it state a model under the template is the one removed.

so what do you think would be the int value then, ie say 5 models are hit, 4 with I 3 one with i4,

do you roll on the units I, or 4 for 3 and one for 4, and lest say the i4 model fails, wouldnt you remove that model?
thoughts?

Page 7 explains that if the test is not 1 for the entire unit (which it isn't in this case) then it's model based.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I was correcting your assertion that a model under the template is removed; one model is removed from the unit for every failed test, nowhere does it state a model under the template is the one removed.

Ah, got it, in which I stand corrected, since there is no rule stating as such to remove the one under the template, despite it not following traditional wound allocation (as no wounds are actually allocated).

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 7 explains that if the test is not 1 for the entire unit (which it isn't in this case) then it's model based.

yeah, so if its model based, only the models under the template are hit then right? so if you hit 5 guys, 4 with I 3 one with i4(a character lets say)

then 4 I tests against the I 3 and one I test against the I4 character, and if the character fails, remove him