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Made in us
Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate



Baltimore, MD

This may sound a little silly, but am I allowed to run my forgefiend with a pair of Hades AC's and the additional Ectoplamsma Cannon as long as I pay the 25pts for it?

The main reason I am asking is because I was called out on it while running it in this configuration in a game earlier this week by another player who seems to have a valid point seeing as the rules are somewhat ambiguous.

Hers what it says in the unit entry:
" • May replace both Hades AC's for EPC's - free
• May take an ADDITIONAL EPC - 25pts"
Now this other player may have been placing too much emphasis on "additional" when reading it but I can see where he is coming from.

Can I get some opinions/clarification on this guys??
Thanks, Pat
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

From the wording, you have to get the free EPCs to get the third.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in nz
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





In The depths of a Tomb World, placing demo charges.

Yet in the codex there is a picture of Forgefeind with hades cannons and a head mounted plasma.

I say as long as your pay the points its fine, the reason its "extrat" is because its not replacing anything.

]
 
   
Made in us
Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate



Baltimore, MD

 Lord Harrab wrote:
Yet in the codex there is a picture of Forgefeind with hades cannons and a head mounted plasma.

I say as long as your pay the points its fine, the reason its "extrat" is because its not replacing anything.


This was my reasoning as the two arm mounted EPC's dont cost anything so it's not like I am gaining a points advantage by not purchasing the first two and only buying the third cannon, if that makes any sense. >.<

Maybe I am gaining a severe advantage, idk feel free to correct me if I am, I just think the bigass gatling gun Hades AC's look much more badass and are loads more versatile than an EPC loaded out fiend which now has the potential to glance itself to death in one round of pisspoor dicerolling, just my opinion. Lollll

Thanks for the speedy response though guys, both of you, it seems that GW's tendency to be contradictory through the RAW and then going and showing you in the pictures RAI strikes again...goddammit

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 08:09:44


 
   
Made in nz
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





In The depths of a Tomb World, placing demo charges.

pjcoffey55 wrote:
 Lord Harrab wrote:
Yet in the codex there is a picture of Forgefeind with hades cannons and a head mounted plasma.

I say as long as your pay the points its fine, the reason its "extrat" is because its not replacing anything.


This was my reasoning as the two arm mounted EPC's dont cost anything so it's not like I am gaining a points advantage by not purchasing the first two and only buying the third cannon, if that makes any sense. >.<

Maybe I am gaining a severe advantage, idk feel free to correct me if I am, I just think the bigass gatling gun Hades AC's look much more badass and are loads more versatile than an EPC loaded out fiend which now has the potential to glance itself to death in one round of pisspoor dicerolling, just my opinion. Lollll

Thanks for the speedy response though guys, both of you, it seems that GW's tendency to have contradictory RAW and then go and show you in the pictures RAI strikes again...goddammit


Indeed. Those multi-barreled cannons are awesome looking, and that head-cannon makes termies uneasy to go near it.

I'm planning on taking the same load out, and the rules don't say that i have to take the other cannons to get the face-cannon, so i won't.

]
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




How do you take an "additional" cannon if you have none to begin with?
   
Made in nz
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





In The depths of a Tomb World, placing demo charges.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
How do you take an "additional" cannon if you have none to begin with?


By taking it "In addition" to the Hades Autocannons perhaps?

]
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Then it is not an additional Cannon, it is a cannon in addition to your hades cannon.

THe phrasing of "additional cannon" is rather important. You cannot have an additional cannon until you have your first cannon, but can have a cannon in addition to a non-cannon. The former is the rule, however given GWs patchy understanding of even basic grammar I wouldnt bet on that being what they intended.
   
Made in nz
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





In The depths of a Tomb World, placing demo charges.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Then it is not an additional Cannon, it is a cannon in addition to your hades cannon.

THe phrasing of "additional cannon" is rather important. You cannot have an additional cannon until you have your first cannon, but can have a cannon in addition to a non-cannon. The former is the rule, however given GWs patchy understanding of even basic grammar I wouldnt bet on that being what they intended.


Indeed. I've yet to encounter another games system that has such poorly worded options and rules. This is yet another example of something that could go either way, personally i say; "Yes you can take the cannon without first replacing the auto-cannons", but thats only backed up by an image of such a load out on page 86 of the new codex and not by any rules.

Roll on the FAQ i guess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 10:38:57


]
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




RAW , you cannot take an "additional cannon" without first having one or more cannon

RAI? Who knows. (Those models have been wrong before - the codex is often a bad place to trust the pictures!) HWIPI? That the model looks cool in that config, so any opponent who wanted to field it I would have no issues with that.
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

Autocannon is a cannon... but even then it doesn't matter. I can have two oranges and then buy and additional apple.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 14:00:27


It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Sigh. Quote foreshortened to avoid spelling "ectoplasm" every time. The rule is clear on what type of cannon you already have to have

And in English you cannot. do that; you have an Apple IN ADDITION to having 2 oranges, you cannot buy an additional apple to your 0 existing apples, as "additional" requires the thing you are adding to already be there.
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say






I think it's pretty obvious that you can have an ectoplasma with the hades autocannons as there is a picture of it with this configuration in the codex. Honestly, some of you people read too much into the wording of the rules just to find an advantage to your army and a disadvantage to your opponents army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


A picture taken from GW website.
[/thread]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 14:27:33


“Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does.
That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
– Eighth Captain, Khârn 
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

Also look at the fact that the two options are at equal nesting. The second isn't dependent on the first like with flack cannons for missile launchers.

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




And? The language used makes it dependent, irrespecitve of the positioning.

Ed - gee, its almost like that point hasnt been covered 2 or 3 times by now. Also, you have read the tenets I trust? Where in a GW Codex, BRB, FAQ or Errata does that picture appear in the rules section?

I can point to illegal units in codexes (Old VC, from memory) as well as illegal options in pictures. DOesnt mean the printed rule is somehow superceded by a picture
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




ad·di·tion·al
Adjective
Added, extra, or supplementary to what is already present or available.
----------------------------
existing by way of addition
----------------------------
added; more; supplementary
----------------------------
added or supplementary
----------------------------

Various definitions of "additional" do not support nosferatu1001's narrow reading thereof.
   
Made in gb
Water-Caste Negotiator





6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.


I'd say in this case additional is used to mean "not exchanging other weapons options for".

Tau, Dark Eldar and Inquisition 40K player, occasional Lizardman Fantasy player, proud Lord of the Rings player and Rebel X-Wing player

> 4000 pts 1500 pts 1500 pts 1500pts

Ascalam wrote:Only the Eldar could party hard enough to rip a hole in the material universe, and then stage an after-party in the webway like nothing happened
 
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

"In addition" doesn't just mean "and more of the same". NOS, as you are from the UK, thinking of politicians speeches, "In addition" is usually the start of a non sequitur as is "additionally" so it is not universal that addition is of like terms or units. It is a common use of those phrases in Ireland and in parts of the UK if the commons are to be believed. English is defined by use etc.
For example: I grabbed three pairs of pants in addition to the other clothes that I purchased.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/11 15:34:31


It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




"pants" is a subset of clothes. The same cannot be said for "ectoplasm"
   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

Additional weapon.

It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yet you arent being allowed to take an additional "weapon" in general, you are being told to take a specific one. - one which you do not already have
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

While I agree that RAW you need the first set to take the additional.

RAI and HIWPI is shown in the image that's getting so much love in this thread.

   
Made in ie
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Ireland

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet you arent being allowed to take an additional "weapon" in general, you are being told to take a specific one. - one which you do not already have

So we are agreed the 2nd point in the forgefiend allows it to buy another excoplasm cannon indifferent to the other two guns it is sporting?
The 2nd point isn't indented further than the first not is is an empty circle or a hyphen. That from the context of the codex's formatting convention shows that it is not a dependent choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 16:04:18


It's not the size of the blade, it's how you use it.
2000+
1500+
2000+

For all YMDC arguements remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U

My blog: http://dublin-spot-check.blogspot.ie/ 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yet the wording makes it dependent.

And no, we do not agree. I was, in fact, pointing out the difference in your analogy to the situation presented. There is no superset you are being told to add to, just the single weapon
   
Made in nz
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





In The depths of a Tomb World, placing demo charges.

Its been faq'd.
you don't need to swap out the autocannons to get the face mounted plasma cannon.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2940043a_Chaos_Space_Marines_v1.1_JANUARY13.pdf

]
 
   
Made in gb
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Q: Must a Forgefiend exchange its hades autocannons for
ectoplasma cannons before being allowed to take the ‘additional’
ectoplasma cannon upgrade? (p103)
A: No.

Taken from January FAQ update. Problem solved!
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anacortes

LOL was'nt in contention for me to start with. It still can only fire 2 of them per turn. However it does give options to use a cupcake blast marker to hit for some ap2 goodness.

In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
   
Made in us
Nihilistic Necron Lord




The best State-Texas

Lungpickle wrote:
LOL was'nt in contention for me to start with. It still can only fire 2 of them per turn. However it does give options to use a cupcake blast marker to hit for some ap2 goodness.


Why can it only fire 2 per turn? Perhaps I've missed something, but I don't see anything stating that.

4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
:Necron: Necron Discord: https://discord.com/invite/AGtpeD4  
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Because its a walker.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Nervous Accuser






6th ed made it so walkers can fire all the weapons at once.
   
 
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