Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Im in the proccess of finishing up my death guard army and was wondering which of the two would fit in. Army is all foot with plague marines and havocs. The only exception is that I have two heldrakes for support. So for my last FA slot im having a hard time deciding which of these can work. Any comments will be appreciated.

Well, both unit types are decent in the new codex. Should an HQ lead your FA squad or will the unit be on its own?

right now i have the lord just to give access to plague marines as troops. I could make him lead the bikes if it is worth it. Im open either way. Oh, btw i have daemon allies with epidemius..

Spawn work better as a Lord Delivery Vehicle. Bikes are more versatile but will die easier.

 Kasrkin52 wrote:
right now i have the lord just to give access to plague marines as troops. I could make him lead the bikes if it is worth it. Im open either way. Oh, btw i have daemon allies with epidemius..

Well, I'd favor a fast Lord on a bike instead of a lumbering one. At the moment, I'm more into Spawn. They are fast and ignore terrain. The Lord can accompany them and soak up wounds for a single turn. Then the Spawn should be in range for a charge (round 2).

 Enigwolf wrote:
Bikes are more versatile but will die easier.

This is a misconception. Point for point, bikes are more resistant to most firepower. While they have 1 wound each, they have a 3+ armor save/5++,4++ jink. This means that the bikes will tend to last longer than spawn.
If your using the bikes/spawn as a lord delivery system this is less important, as your only going to be shot at for one round.

In protracted assaults, the spawn really edge out over bikes. So if your planning on just using them for assault spawn are better.
For general role, bikes are better. If your planning on using them to shoot at FMCs, or for more general purpose (melta delivery system, etc) bikes really edge out over spawn.

I wrote a lot about the differences when the CSM codex came out here.
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/bikes-or-spawn-t4376.html

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Bikes are more versatile but will die easier.

This is a misconception. Point for point, bikes are more resistant to most firepower. While they have 1 wound each, they have a 3+ armor save/5++,4++ jink. This means that the bikes will tend to last longer than spawn.
If your using the bikes/spawn as a lord delivery system this is less important, as your only going to be shot at for one round.

In protracted assaults, the spawn really edge out over bikes. So if your planning on just using them for assault spawn are better.
For general role, bikes are better. If your planning on using them to shoot at FMCs, or for more general purpose (melta delivery system, etc) bikes really edge out over spawn.

I wrote a lot about the differences when the CSM codex came out here.
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/bikes-or-spawn-t4376.html

I stand corrected. I've been fielding both a lot to weigh their differences, and bikes have always tended to die a lot faster in practice to me versus spawn. That might easily be the case that when I'm running spawn, they typically have a 4++ from area terrain ruins, however, which increases their survivability by a lot.

Skimming the post, it's an interesting read so far. Will read more in detail later.

 labmouse42 wrote:

I wrote a lot about the differences when the CSM codex came out here.
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/bikes-or-spawn-t4376.html

Thanks for the insightful read on a boring Saturday night. Exalted.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

I wrote a lot about the differences when the CSM codex came out here.
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/bikes-or-spawn-t4376.html

Thanks for the insightful read on a boring Saturday night. Exalted.

Read through the post, Exalted as well. Interesting from a numbers standpoint, I do feel that you left out calculations for the survivability of Spawn hugging cover (as I mentioned in my previous post), which might sway the decision to take spawn and bikes. However, as a result of hugging cover, they might typically only be able to hit on turn 2 or turn 3, whereas bikes can pretty reliable hit on turn 2 due to their cover save being a result of simply moving fast. Someone did the mathhammer in another thread, but MoN bikes have proven to be slightly more resilient, cheaper, and not-as-risky as MoS+IoE bikers.

I still stand that spawn make better Lord Delivery Vehicles, and that Bikes are more versatile (as you have pointed out in that post too) and can put out more wounds on the charge (once you include shooting with them before a charge). Nonetheless, a good read for those who can't decide.

 Enigwolf wrote:
I stand corrected. I've been fielding both a lot to weigh their differences, and bikes have always tended to die a lot faster in practice to me versus spawn. That might easily be the case that when I'm running spawn, they typically have a 4++ from area terrain ruins, however, which increases their survivability by a lot.

Skimming the post, it's an interesting read so far. Will read more in detail later.

Yea, if you can give those spawn a 4++ they are much more survivable (point for point)

I wrote that when the codex first dropped, and we have figured out a few things since then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Enigwolf wrote:
t MoN bikes have proven to be slightly more resilient, cheaper, and not-as-risky as MoS+IoE bikers.

Right. MoN bikes are better vs bolters, but worse vs weapons that are STR 7+ than MoS+IoE bikes.

The question which to use really depends on your meta, and what your usually shot at by. I find a lot more bolters than PGs in my area, so the nurgle are the better choice. If your facing PG IG vets all day long then the MoS+IoE are better.

Not that long ago I ranted about this concept of toughness/FNP models here.
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/plague-marine-awesomeness-t4616.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Griddlelol wrote:
Thanks for the insightful read on a boring Saturday night. Exalted.

Wow, thanks guys. Praise from the internet. Who would have imagined?

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
t MoN bikes have proven to be slightly more resilient, cheaper, and not-as-risky as MoS+IoE bikers.

Right. MoN bikes are better vs bolters, but worse vs weapons that are STR 7+ than MoS+IoE bikes.

The question which to use really depends on your meta, and what your usually shot at by. I find a lot more bolters than PGs in my area, so the nurgle are the better choice. If your facing PG IG vets all day long then the MoS+IoE are better.

Not that long ago I ranted about this concept of toughness/FNP models here.
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/plague-marine-awesomeness-t4616.html

I usually run a Skalathrax Nurgle Lord on a bike with MoN bikers simply because there doesn't tend to be a lot of plasma in my meta - if there's plasma it's going to be directed against my Obliterators and Abaddon's Terminator retinue. lol. Sufficient threat saturation!

My Plague Marines today tarpitted a beefy CSM Tzeentch Daemon Prince (with Iron Arm and the other Biomancy power which gives FNP/EW) more than twice their points cost for 3 rounds (on Turn 2) after it charged my Obliterator squad. Funnily enough, between the Oblits' powerfists and the 4+ poisoned, they hurt it pretty bad. While my Obliterators eventually lost combat and got sweeped, my Plague Marines were FNP'ing all the MC AP2 attacks. I think it had one wound left by Turn 5 when it finally killed everyone.

Funny story about bike footprints, I used my Lord+Bike Squad to bubblewrap my Plague Marines holding the Relic such that in Turn 6 that Daemon Prince couldn't flap over to assault them to contest it.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
Thanks for the insightful read on a boring Saturday night. Exalted.

Wow, thanks guys. Praise from the internet. Who would have imagined?

What can I say, Dakka is a good community!

 Enigwolf wrote:
My Plague Marines today tarpitted a beefy CSM Tzeentch Daemon Prince (with Iron Arm and the other Biomancy power which gives FNP/EW) more than twice their points cost for 3 rounds (on Turn 2) after it charged my Obliterator squad. Funnily enough, between the Oblits' powerfists and the 4+ poisoned, they hurt it pretty bad. While my Obliterators eventually lost combat and got sweeped, my Plague Marines were FNP'ing all the MC AP2 attacks. I think it had one wound left by Turn 5 when it finally killed everyone.

That's cool! Go PMs!

PMs are just awesome. Last night I was playing my buddy's orks. He shot one squad of PMs with 3 squads of shoota boys and managed to kill 1 PM. He was shocked that the shootas did such little good, and I explained to him that a shoota has a 2/81 (2.4%) chance to kill a PM with each shot. Small arms vs PMs is just the wrong tool for the job!

 Enigwolf wrote:
Funny story about bike footprints, I used my Lord+Bike Squad to bubblewrap my Plague Marines holding the Relic such that in Turn 6 that Daemon Prince couldn't flap over to assault them to contest it.

LOL awesome.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Kasrkin52 wrote:
right now i have the lord just to give access to plague marines as troops. I could make him lead the bikes if it is worth it. Im open either way. Oh, btw i have daemon allies with epidemius..

Well, I'd favor a fast Lord on a bike instead of a lumbering one. At the moment, I'm more into Spawn. They are fast and ignore terrain. The Lord can accompany them and soak up wounds for a single turn. Then the Spawn should be in range for a charge (round 2).

agreed completely.

They are both very expensive $ wise models. ignoring terrain is beyond useful though. Plus something is just more intimidating about them and that can do wonders to distract an inexperienced player