Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Would Sammael makes Ravenwing support squadron as troops? That would be awesome.

Sammael: 200

5 Ravenwing support squadron: 300 (Multi Melta) + 1 DJ speeder 80
5 Ravenwing support squadron: 300 (Multi Melta) + 1 DJ speeder 80
5 Ravenwing support squadron: 300 (Multi Melta) + 1 DJ speeder 80

Its like having 15 T10 W2 with 3+ cover save that shoots 15 multimeltas.

I don't have the new codex, and am not questioning it, but how are they T10?

Speeders have 10 armor points all around hence the T10 comparison I guess.

Won't you have huge problems against anything with lots of bodies or attacks ignoring cover saves ?

Nope Sammy makes attack sqauds troops, but I could see this as fun lol, I plan on having 3x2 units of typhoons to support my bikes, really surprised they are still so cheap

So if they are troops, can LSs take objectives just like any other troop choice would?

My German codex says that Sammael makes RW Bikers troops, but not RW Landspeeder squadrons.

DAalltheway wrote:
So if they are troops, can LSs take objectives just like any other troop choice would?

Vehicles can't score unless stated specifically by the mission. So, no.

derito wrote:
Speeders have 10 armor points all around hence the T10 comparison I guess.

Won't you have huge problems against anything with lots of bodies or attacks ignoring cover saves ?

Actually, with AV10 speeders are comparable to T6, since a S6 weapon will 'wound' (ie, get a glance or better) them on a 4+. AV14 is more comparable to T10, which the land speeders clearly aren't.

Just correcting your statement.

Actually, with AV10 speeders are comparable to T6, since a S6 weapon will 'wound' (ie, get a glance or better) them on a 4+. AV14 is more comparable to T10, which the land speeders clearly aren't.

Just correcting your statement.

Actually, you're right. I guess AV 13 or AV 14 is the equivalent to T10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

My German codex says that Sammael makes RW Bikers troops, but not RW Landspeeder squadrons.

Very true. I just realize that Sammael can't make "Black Knights" troops either. They remain as fast attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I don't have the new codex, and am not questioning it, but how are they T10?

LoL, silly me. I was focusing toward their equivalent numerical 10 stats. However, if you look at the roll to wound chart vs roll to pen/glance chart they would say otherwise. Eg: S6 to T6 is 4+ or equivalent to AV10 which is a 4+ to glance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nope Sammy makes attack sqauds troops, but I could see this as fun lol, I plan on having 3x2 units of typhoons to support my bikes, really surprised they are still so cheap

Agree they're really cheap.

As you've hopefully already realised, this is pretty much a bad idea. But to go into further detail - pouring all your points into Speeders gives you a very hard match against anyone with easy access to strong template weaponry (Daemon Flamers, Baal Predators, Redeemers, Heldrakes and Sternguard just off the top of my head). With only a couple of Hull Points each it's also fairly easy for average troops to get rid of Speeders if they concentrate fire, meaning almost everything you're fighting has to be considered a threat.

Together with being vehicles and not being Troops, this makes it easy for someone to outplay you in the objective missions.

The only Sammael/pure Ravenwing build I can see being viable is one with lots of basic Ravenwing. Spend too much on things like Black Knights and fliers and you don't have enough models or troops to control the board.

Speeders have 10 armor points all around hence the T10 comparison I guess.

Won't you have huge problems against anything with lots of bodies or attacks ignoring cover saves ?

Yes. Lots of dakka, squadrons of Hydras, Fire dragons+quad gun, and other ignore cover units would be really scary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

As you've hopefully already realised, this is pretty much a bad idea. But to go into further detail - pouring all your points into Speeders gives you a very hard match against anyone with easy access to strong template weaponry (Daemon Flamers, Baal Predators, Redeemers, Heldrakes and Sternguard just off the top of my head). With only a couple of Hull Points each it's also fairly easy for average troops to get rid of Speeders if they concentrate fire, meaning almost everything you're fighting has to be considered a threat.

Together with being vehicles and not being Troops, this makes it easy for someone to outplay you in the objective missions.

The only Sammael/pure Ravenwing build I can see being viable is one with lots of basic Ravenwing. Spend too much on things like Black Knights and fliers and you don't have enough models or troops to control the board.

Yes it was. lol. Again, I was playing with the codex, trying to make some element of surprise there. lol.

Still trying to make a ravenwing build that is competitive in a way, but i kept on combining some deathwing or a tac squad in the end because point wise a pure ravenwing build is so expensive lol.

I can see a basic "1 HQ (Libby Divination) on bike or Sammael + 3 Ravenwing Command Squad ( Apot+champion) (1 rad grenades)+ 6 Ravenwing Attack Squadron" adds up to 10 bikers roaming across the table.

That's not a bad lineup, if you then have Deathwing jumping on those teleport homers in support, hopefully leaving Ravenwing free to go off for objectives.
Expensive as he is, Azrael's great for a combined build due to making everything scoring AND providing the 4+ invulnerable bubble. Only problem is, it's tough to justify squeezing both him and Sammael/Belial into one army, and those two are just so damn handy.

To elaborate on how tough av10 is, a s3 gun can't kill av10, but s4 can. This corresponds to t7. However, the av10 speeder gets no save other than cover, has 2 wounds, and can be instant deathed by s5 weapons on a pen. So all in all pretty weak. Also, after a point str no longer increases your chance to wound a model, but that is not true for vehicles.

In comparison to meq, it takes 6 bolter hits to kill a marine. It takes 18 bolter hits to down a speeder with a 5+ jink. So when taking a speeder, it has effectively the survivability of only 3 space marines versus the most common weapon strength.

Super Ready
That's not a bad lineup, if you then have Deathwing jumping on those teleport homers in support, hopefully leaving Ravenwing free to go off for objectives.
Expensive as he is, Azrael's great for a combined build due to making everything scoring AND providing the 4+ invulnerable bubble. Only problem is, it's tough to justify squeezing both him and Sammael/Belial into one army, and those two are just so damn handy.

I know right. I was trying to combine Belial and sammael together, but point wise is just soo expensive. In a 1750 game where i normally play is just isn't viable. Not enough troops on the table. To get RW and DW as troops, I think Azrael is the way to go for playing DA. Again, i just realize that Azrael must be the warlord. So, he is DA exclusive. He can't be an ally by the looks of it. He too cant make land speeders to troop. lol

They FAQ'd it, I think the rewording became something like "If Azrael is part of your primary detachement he must be your warlord" or something like that

Page 53/93 – Azrael Warlord Trait.
Change this entry to “If Azrael is in your primary detachment,
he must be your Warlord. He can choose any of the Dark
Angels Warlord Traits on page 28 (there is no need to roll)”.

DevianID
To elaborate on how tough av10 is, a s3 gun can't kill av10, but s4 can. This corresponds to t7. However, the av10 speeder gets no save other than cover, has 2 wounds, and can be instant deathed by s5 weapons on a pen. So all in all pretty weak. Also, after a point str no longer increases your chance to wound a model, but that is not true for vehicles.

In comparison to meq, it takes 6 bolter hits to kill a marine. It takes 18 bolter hits to down a speeder with a 5+ jink. So when taking a speeder, it has effectively the survivability of only 3 space marines versus the most common weapon strength.

Yes. I was thinking of the combining the Land speeders with DJ speeder dark shroud ability to get additional +1 cover save. But point wise,i just don't see it happening.

But then, could you explain how do you get the math to get 6 S4 bolter hit to kill a marine? And 18 S4 bolter hit to down a LS?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gar'Ang

They FAQ'd it, I think the rewording became something like "If Azrael is part of your primary detachement he must be your warlord" or something like that

Oh yeah they did.. Thank God lol.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shandara

Page 53/93 – Azrael Warlord Trait.
Change this entry to “If Azrael is in your primary detachment,
he must be your Warlord. He can choose any of the Dark
Angels Warlord Traits on page 28 (there is no need to roll)”.

Ok, thanks bruh.

Azrael's Trait 5 and 6 is probably the best i could think of:

Brilliant Planning: reserve roll +1 and Hold at All Costs: FNP to unit when near objectives.

Unless you're reserving more than Deathwing that reserve warlord trait is useless.

I'm surprised no is talking about the fact that you can take 4 units in one FoC with the Ravenwing bikes, 3 of which are scoring with Sammy. No one can MSU like Ravenwing this edition. You don't even have to give up the ability to take 5 marines + heavy weapon. Most armies won't be able to handle that many targets, and will likely waste a lot firepower on them.

Also dont worry too much about bolters with speeders, if you're going Typhoon you win against those marines by sheer range and mobility. I'd worry more about autocannons and lascannons but anything that can take those cost more than a speeder and are wasting shots,.

The 5 speeder squadron is a trap though. You'll attract more fire than a single speeder and they dont waste any shots shooting at that unit..

Yeah, four units with melta guns taking up one FOC slot for 300 points is sick.

900 points for 12 fast moving, deep striking/outflanking melta gun units, leaving 1100pts for who knows what with every other slot still open.

Now if only I had the money...