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1. Let's say a vampire lord Initiative 7 is in a horde of zombies initiative 1 ASL are fighting spearelves initiative 4 with spees of asurian (ASF), zombies unit with the lord get vigor mortis (ASF) who swings in what order?

2. Same question but replace spearelves with swordmasters Init 4 SoA and GW (ASL)?

Models with ASF all go simultainiously.

Ordinarily if you have both ASF and ASL they cancel out and go at inititive. But IIRC the Vigor Mortis says the Zombies lose their ASL while they have it so the Zombies will all go at ASF. High Elves also ignore ASL from any weapons they are armed with.

So all the attacks will be made simultaniously and nobody gets rerolls(because 2 ASF fighting each other lose the rerolls)


This all quite clearly laid out on page 66 of the rulebook.

So the SM would not lose ASF before ASL kicks in? THAT part is not clearly laid out. It can easily be argued for SM ASL once they lose the ASF rule.

No, no it can't.

The Speed of Asurman rule clearly says that models with the rule ignore the ASL penelty for any weapons they are wielding.

Yeah the High Elf FAQ makes it pretty clear:

Q: The Speed of Asuryan special rule states that “all High Elves
have the special rule Always Strike First, regardless of the weapon
they are wielding.” How does this interact with a great weapons
Always Strike Last? (p43)
A: The army book will take precedence in this situation. For
example, a Sword Master would strike first with his great
weapon. If his Initiative value is equal to or higher than his
opponent’s, he will also benefit from a re-roll to hit.

ASL never kicks in for HE's. They never lose ASF, nor would their opponent, they just don't get the specified benefit of rerolling misses or getting to actually strike first. Attack at the same time.

That's a unique case, though. Any other unit in any other army, as far a I know, who is given ASF and fights with a great weapon only gets to neutralize the effect and strike in initiative order.

 Aipoch wrote:
ASL never kicks in for HE's. They never lose ASF, nor would their opponent, they just don't get the specified benefit of rerolling misses or getting to actually strike first. Attack at the same time.

That's a unique case, though. Any other unit in any other army, as far a I know, who is given ASF and fights with a great weapon only gets to neutralize the effect and strike in initiative order.

Incorrect, well, the first part. HE have ASF, and cannot lose it due to using a weapon that has ASL. they CAN lose it through other means (dragonhide banner/bat swarms spring to mind). In those cases, if it says they 'gain ASL, then they strike at initiative. If is says 'lose ASF and gain ASL (say, from bat swarms)', well, the wording is pretty clear.

Another question.

A Vampire with Quickblood (ASF) and initiative 6 is in a unit of Skeletons with initiative 2. This unit is in combat with HE SMs with init 6 and ASF (doesn't matter what weapons they're equipped with).

The Vampire and the SMs attack at the same time. The skeletons attack last.

1) Does the Vampire get rerolls to hit against the SMs, as per the rules for ASF and init order?

2) Do the SMs get rerolls to hit against the Vampire or the Skeletons?

Do Swordmasters even have access to different weapon options?

1) The rules you refer to say ASF has no effect against ASF.

2) The rules you refer to say ASF has no effect against ASF. It does have its usual effects against any non-ASF models.

So, if both the vamp and the HEs have ASF, and they're both hitting each other, no one gets rerolls to hit. It is only when a model with ASF attacks a model without ASF that the potential for rerolls (due to initiative) applies. Right? This is true even in mixed units where some models have ASF, some don't, and initiative values are all over the place. Right?

Not sure what your last line is asking Tangent.

P 66 lays this out pretty unambiguously. In your example:

The Vampire and High Elves would swing at the same time. The vampire would not get re-rolls. The High Elves would only get re-rolls if they attacked skeletons rather than the vampire.

The skeletons would swing after everyone else.

 Tangent wrote:
So, if both the vamp and the HEs have ASF, and they're both hitting each other, no one gets rerolls to hit. It is only when a model with ASF attacks a model without ASF that the potential for rerolls (due to initiative) applies. Right?

Right.

This is true even in mixed units where some models have ASF, some don't, and initiative values are all over the place. Right?

Of course. Model A has ASF, so might get re-rolls, model B doesn't have ASF, so cannot possibly get re-rolls. You only need to compare model A's Ini value to whatever it attacks.

 Tangent wrote:
Another question.

A Vampire with Quickblood (ASF) and initiative 6 is in a unit of Skeletons with initiative 2. This unit is in combat with HE SMs with init 6 and ASF (doesn't matter what weapons they're equipped with).

The Vampire and the SMs attack at the same time. The skeletons attack last.

1) Does the Vampire get rerolls to hit against the SMs, as per the rules for ASF and init order?

2) Do the SMs get rerolls to hit against the Vampire or the Skeletons?

1) No, because the SM have ASF. Which means you don't get the rerolls, see P66.

2) Against the Skeletons only.

ASF -> non-ASF = Strike first and re-roll
example: Swordmaster against Skeletons

ASF -> ASF = Both strike at the same time and no re-roll.
example: Swordmaster against Vampire

If you wish to re-roll against a VC unit with both Skeletons and vampire, you should declare clearly who's going to attack whom.
example: "These column on SM will attack vampire, so their to hit can't be re-rolled; and other SM will attack Skeletons so they can re-roll failed to-hit rolls."

Correct me if I was wrong.

Excellent - thanks a ton, guys.

hallodx wrote:
ASF -> non-ASF = Strike first and re-roll
example: Swordmaster against Skeletons

ASF -> ASF = Both strike at the same time and no re-roll.
example: Swordmaster against Vampire

If you wish to re-roll against a VC unit with both Skeletons and vampire, you should declare clearly who's going to attack whom.
example: "These column on SM will attack vampire, so their to hit can't be re-rolled; and other SM will attack Skeletons so they can re-roll failed to-hit rolls."

Correct me if I was wrong.

In this specific case, that's true, but bear in mind that the re-roll associated with ASF only kicks in when attacking a non-ASF target that *also* has an initiative equal to or less than the attacker's initiative.