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Hey friends,

Basically, can armies like Space marine, Space Wolf, Dark Angels, etc. get away with having more than 6 scoring units, due to ICs that make elites or fast attack models troops?

If, for example, I was a Dark Angels player, and I took Azrael as my hero. He makes both bikers and terminators troops. Since I don't actually have that codex, how is it phrazed? "...allows Deathwing Terminators to be taken as troops." would be my assumption. That would lead me to believe that they still have to take up a troop slot in the FOC to be scoring.

A guy at my gaming group had a list that was 4 tac squads, 3 or 4 terminator squads and a couple bike squads, running Azrael as his HQ. He claims that everything he was fielding could hold and score objectives. I don't think it's right to have scoring elite and fast attack FOC slots.

Maybe I'm wrong, but in my Space Wolf codex, I'm pretty sure Logan Grimnar allows Wolf Guard to be taken as troops. He doesn't magically make your elite slots scoring though, so any unit of Wolf Guard taken as troops, prevents taking a unit of Grey Hunters. Without allying there is now way a Space WOlf army can field more than 6 scoring units. Is the Dark Angel codex the same, or am I reading things incorrectly?

His list would not be legal if he played it that way. While those units may be taken as troops, they do count towards his troop slot, meaning he could not take that many units and say they are all scoring. It depends on if the rule states hey may, or they are taken in that slot.(I don't have the book on me for this case)

Its worth noting in the new DA codex that if you take Belial, Sammael, etc, you don't get the option to choose in DW or RV are troops or elite/fast attack. They automatically become troop selections, period (in your primary detachment).

There is a definate distinction between "May be taken as troops" and "Makes X unit scoring".

If they may be taken as troops, they take a Troop FOC slot. If it makes them scoring, they remain elite/heavy/fast, but count as scoring units (but not as troops).

"There is a definate distinction between "May be taken as troops" and "Makes X unit scoring".

If they may be taken as troops, they take a Troop FOC slot. If it makes them scoring, they remain elite/heavy/fast, but count as scoring units (but not as troops). "

I understand the difference. My question was which of those 2 scenarios is it.

"Its worth noting in the new DA codex that if you take Belial, Sammael, etc, you don't get the option to choose in DW or RV are troops or elite/fast attack. They automatically become troop selections, period (in your primary detachment). "

Right, so if he takes Azrael, he can only have 3 units of terminators and 3 bike squads. he can't choose to take more terminators as Elites, even if we agree that they are not scoring?!?!?!?! So there is no way to have 9 squads of terminators. 6 as troops and 3 as elites?

Erik the Red wrote:

Right, so if he takes Azrael, he can only have 3 units of terminators and 3 bike squads. he can't choose to take more terminators as Elites, even if we agree that they are not scoring?!?!?!?! So there is no way to have 9 squads of terminators. 6 as troops and 3 as elites?

That's right. If he takes Azreal, then he can only have the 3 terms and 3 bikes because that maxes your troops allotment. He can't state that some terminators are elites while others aren't. His special rule forces all of them all to be troops and he has to work within those limitations. You could of course have 6 terminators and no bikes.

It's not optional and they become Troops rather than "become scoring".

Only applies to the standard Deathwing Terminator Squad though, so 6 of those and 3 Deathwing Knights is fine.

if a SM player takes 6x10 man squads, and combat squads them into 12 5 man units, they legally have 12 scoring units, since only 6 slots were used
can also ally in a 7th/13th allied detachment of guard platton for even MORE scoring since one platton counts as one choice, but is still multiple scoring units

They become troops and therefore become scoring. DW Knights would still be elites.

Combat squad'ing is different since it is done after lists are made and is a choice to do, not mandatory.

Several Armies can have more than 6/12 scoring units in a game. Combat Squads are one method that Space Marines can get more scoring units.

Im sure the debate will pop up again much like it did for GK's with the DA codex. Does Sammael/Belial/Azrael PREVENT them from being taken as Elites as normal. With GK's for an example, what players were doing is taking the Inquisitor who makes Henchmen Troops, and STILL taking them as Elites. To be FAIR, I don't think that any that are being taken as Elites SHOULD count as scoring if he is taking them that way, and you have the right to ask which ones aren't scoring.

Your opponents list COULD be legal at 2k where he gets a 2nd FoC available to him. So if he has Azrael, he would just need to take either Sammael or Belial and that odd unit would then also count as scoring, provided he met the requirements (which he could by taking either the 2 bikes or the 2 termie units as troops for the added character)

 Akar wrote:
So if he has Azrael, he would just need to take either Sammael or Belial and that odd unit would then also count as scoring, provided he met the requirements (which he could by taking either the 2 bikes or the 2 termie units as troops for the added character)

Azrael is enough as he makes them both troops

 kaapelikala wrote:

Azrael is enough as he makes them both troops

But not enough to make the 7th unit a Troops option. The OP listed more than 6 units as Troops, this is just another way that I didn't see included, to have more than 6 'Troops' on the table.

 Akar wrote:
Im sure the debate will pop up again much like it did for GK's with the DA codex. Does Sammael/Belial/Azrael PREVENT them from being taken as Elites as normal.

Yes. It states that "Ravenwing Attack squadrons.... are troops choices instead of their usual FOC categories". Pretty much every FOC altering SC already works like this, specifying that "Unit X are Troops choices". It is not "Troop choices in addition" but just "Troop choices", meaning that the units original FOC designation is removed and replaced.

 Akar wrote:
With GK's for an example, what players were doing is taking the Inquisitor who makes Henchmen Troops, and STILL taking them as Elites.

They were cheating. C:GK is states that Inquisitorial Henchmen Warbands are Troop choices and thus cannot be Elites, in army that contains Coteaz. This is even explicitly answered in the FAQ.

I'd like to clarify what the Grey Knight Coteaz exploit was for reference. (thankfully it's been FAQed into oblivion now)

The initial wording the the Henchmen warbands were that they were elites and did not take up an FOC slot, but that you could only take one per inquisitor in your army.

Coteaz waives the 'one per inquisitor' and makes them count as troops.

Some folks took that as saying that they were troops instead of elites and that you could take more than one per army, but that nothing negated the 'Do not take up an FOC slot' part of their rules; so they went with essentially as many MSUs composed of deathcult assassins and razorbacks as points and preferences allowed. (all of which were scoring and absolutely lethal for their point cost to just about everything)

Kantor, makes sternguard scoring, but not troops, you can have 18 scoring units (combat squadding) in high point games with him!