Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So with the new FAQ that makes heldrakes turrets and with Vector Strike now ignoring cover, are Heldrakes the big autotake unit in the CSM codex??? I really can't see any reason why you'd never want to take at least one, unless you REALLY hate the model or something...

The Baleflamer and regenerating HP made it an auto take in my book. The vector strike and turret is nothing more than candy sprinkles on sugar frosting.

It was pretty much an autotake before the FAQ anyways. Considering it only got better, I don't see how it couldn't be.

 Jayden63 wrote:
The Baleflamer and regenerating HP made it an auto take in my book. The vector strike and turret is nothing more than candy sprinkles on sugar frosting.

Pretty much... It was already the best unit in the FA slot, now it's even better!

Auto-take. The only real question is whether it's worth giving up a biker/spawn HQ escort for a third one...

gotta protect dat choppa HQ

Corollax wrote:
Auto-take. The only real question is whether it's worth giving up a biker/spawn HQ escort for a third one...

It might actually be worth it to take the Hades on one now, as well. Since you can Vector Strike Across a Vehicle, then blast Rear Armor as well. I'll probably stick to Baleflamers though, because those are just amazing...

 Sasori wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Auto-take. The only real question is whether it's worth giving up a biker/spawn HQ escort for a third one...

It might actually be worth it to take the Hades on one now, as well. Since you can Vector Strike Across a Vehicle, then blast Rear Armor as well. I'll probably stick to Baleflamers though, because those are just amazing...

THIS

Only question is at what point is it worth it.
3 Heldrakes now??? 2 flamers 1 hades I would say yes,

However 1 and 1? I'm not sure, I think I still like redundancy but 2 S8 hits on average vs rear armor is amazing especially vs other flyers cough loyalist (ig) with front armor 12.
Thoughts?

 jegsar wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Auto-take. The only real question is whether it's worth giving up a biker/spawn HQ escort for a third one...

It might actually be worth it to take the Hades on one now, as well. Since you can Vector Strike Across a Vehicle, then blast Rear Armor as well. I'll probably stick to Baleflamers though, because those are just amazing...

THIS

Only question is at what point is it worth it.
3 Heldrakes now??? 2 flamers 1 hades I would say yes,

However 1 and 1? I'm not sure, I think I still like redundancy but 2 S8 hits on average vs rear armor is amazing especially vs other flyers cough loyalist (ig) with front armor 12.
Thoughts?

Yeah, combine that with Daemonforge and you have an almost guaranteed dead vehicle. I think for the moment I'm going to stick with two Baleflamer Heldrakes, it's really hard to find the extra points for a third. On the bright-side, they are going to be significantly easier to use now, and even more effective. the Vector Strikes Ignoring cover, is also amazing. I was getting concerned about the Darkshroud+bikes, but no longer. Vector Strike the Darkshroud, and Toast the Bikes...

The biggest thing now, is it won't be pain to set up Vector Strikes+Baleflamer attacks anymore. Sometimes it would be quite difficult, and you'd often have to choose between the two. Not so anymore.

Oh yeah, the improvement is INSANE and Heldrakes alone will beat RW armies.

Just need to figure out how to deal with DW (and optional T5 with 3++) and well be in good shape.

I still dont think hades have gotten any better. BS3 really hurts it, yeah you got daemonforge, buts its only once per game so Chaos help you if you get bad rolls for it...

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I still dont think hades have gotten any better. BS3 really hurts it, yeah you got daemonforge, buts its only once per turn so Chaos help you if you get bad rolls for it...

Daemonforge is once per game, and you only reroll the failed pen die, not all the die. BS3 really isn't all that bad. An average of 2 Strength 8 Shots, to the rear armor of Flyers can be quite good.

What makes it better is alpha strike on second turn vs other flyers. Before even with the hades you could only vector strike or use hades and it would always be front or side armor.

Now you have the option of hades on rear armor and if in range vector srtike. If they are not in range then you fly right in front of them and hrades their front armor or something else and next turn they cannot attack you but you can hades their rear armor unless they fly off. if they fly off you vector strike something on the board and fly off also. This means as long as you are on first on the board you will win 1v1 air combat every time. If you are first on the board then you need to survive one round, if you do you will always win air combat. Technically you will always not lose but my point is the same.

Also you can fly over non flying vehicles and do the same, this was harder but still doable before.

That damn thing was annoying before the FAQ, now its gonna be even worse. Ugh.

Just realized with the new VS rules heldrakes and other flying MCs are now the bane of bikers. So much for RW becoming popular again...

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So with the new FAQ that makes heldrakes turrets and with Vector Strike now ignoring cover, are Heldrakes the big autotake unit in the CSM codex??? I really can't see any reason why you'd never want to take at least one, unless you REALLY hate the model or something...

Nope. Heldrakes are certainly very good, but there are many other powerful and competitive units in the Chaos Space Marines Fast Attack slot, such as Spawn and Bikes. Raptors can also be strong in some compositions. Overall, there's enough competition from other choices that the Heldrake is far from an autoinclude.

It's an auto include, it's just a question of how many. I normally run a Bike squad and a Heldrake,

Rapters are good for meting a tank but there are other options like termies with combi-melta.

Bikes are the biggest competitive choice, spawns are also good but Heldrakes... just amazing, and with 2 heldrakes and a quad gun you may not need flak missles which saves a lot of points. 3 heldrakes (1 with hades) and quad fun is more then enough AA for anything other then a 8-12 flyer list,

Helldrakes are super annoying as they kill anything that does not have a +2 armor or invul save with ease. Now they can ignore cover with vector strike for even more cover ignoring destruction.

If I played chaos, I would always take one. Probably more.

I think 2 is good, I think at 3 you are spamming and if someone happens to have something like 3x or more hydras and a quad gun (with night fighting) you may just out right lose

Imo a single Heldrake was an auto include even before the FAQ. The threat if offers is amazing (even if it doesn't actually kill things) and keeps people on their toes with fragile units that tend to hang back. The FAQ just makes the Baleflamer even more of a no brainer imo.

There is nothing wrong with taking 3, the problem is that Spawn are also amazing and you can't take 3 of both. Its really just a case of how you want to play the army, both are equally viable which a good thing from a competitiveness and diversity standpoint.

Well Im just glad I bought 3

What is RW?

Raven Wing, the Dark Angels fast attack force.

I really want a second heldrake. I still haven't finished building my first one from release. I wanted to paint/build similtaneously but I'm a lazy painter and a fast builder and its just a disappointing pile of bits atm. I'm probably just going to build it and deal with all the paint rage later.

I think 2 is the magic number.

Third slot should go to your choice of spawn/bikers.

Well, one Helldrake should be an auto-include in any larger CSM army. It gives some more tactical flexibility to your army since the bale flamer can reach enemy units deployed in the enemy backfield such as Long Fangs or Havocs, and it works vs. nasty RW Bikers.

1 always wad, i think 2 is now. The only question is about the hades now.

Why take one when you can take 3.
We have enough low cost troop choices sush as Zombies.

I agree that Spawn are good but they are subject to issues sush as getting tied up by walkers.

I constantly run 2-3 depending on my point limit (between 2-2.5k)

There is never a problem with having more Heldrakes lol

The Hades Autocannon is simply, for giggles, believe me, even with things like flicker field, you're going to get in great vector strikes on vehicles and enemy flyers, the Cannon simply isnt needed...

Where if you take the Baleflamer, you're pretty much guaranteed to kill entire squads of infantry (that arent terminators)

So, tactically speaking the cannon is a wasted gun spot, crippling you where you have an option for dealing with armored vehicles. Take the flamer, preform both jobs

I'm going to be counting myself lucky any time I run into a CSM army that only has 2. Now that you can't easily movement block them to stop the baleflamer from roasting your infantry, they are much, much better.

Edit: Typo.