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I tried search function but it wasn't very clear. So here goes. My question is "Can a Crisis Suit Commander (Shas'o or Shas'el) Join a stealth team and outflank with them?"

Relevant Rules:
1) Stealth - "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule..." So the commander would get stealth by being part of the unit.
2) Shroud - "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule..." Commander would also get shroud by being in the stealth team.
3) Hit and Run - "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule..." Commander (who would have vectored thrusters) would allow whole unit to get Hit and Run

These three rules are what makes me want to attach a commander to the unit, he would get the bonuses, they would get the bonuses from him...and it would be awesome. But here is the kicker:

4) Infiltrate - "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule..." BUT "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannon join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment." As far as I can tell no Tau Battlesuit gear gives infiltrate...the stealth teams get it from their XV25 suits, and the XV8 doesnt have it.

So that sucks...it makes it sound like my desires have been shot down except for one thing...Infiltrators get Outflank if kept in reserve. So...
5) Outflank - "...any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..." and NOTHING about Independent Characters not being able to join it.

The crux of the question is...If I keep the commander and the stealth team in reserves...can I keep them together and Outflank them with the XV8 independent character attached? Under reserves section it says "...players can choose not to deploy up to half their units, keeping them in Reserves to arrive later." So having them in reserves means they are NOT deploying meaning he wouldnt be joining the unit "during deployment" but rather during reserves right?

I just want peoples rule calls before I take a whole 6 man stealth team + 14 gun drone blob + Shas'el with even more fusion and flamers and outflank them right into something juicy. I want to be able to explain why it would be legal because I think people at my LGS would be a little...surprised by this tactic and I dont want to fumble trying to legitimize it to others.

There are two ways to read the Infiltrate rule (and both have been argued here):
1. An IC without Infiltrate cannot join a unit that has the Infiltrate rule during deployment.
2. An IC without Infiltrate cannot deploy with a unit that is deploying via the Infiltrate special rule.

If you read it as 1, the IC cannot Outflank with them.
If you read it as 2, the IC is able to Outflank with them.

Looking at the BRB entry, I think it pretty much means it is a no go.

Now a common way around this is to outflank the Stealthteam and DS the commander and join up after they hit the table.

barnowl wrote:
Looking at the BRB entry, I think it pretty much means it is a no go.

Now a common way around this is to outflank the Stealthteam and DS the commander and join up after they hit the table.

If they arrive on the same turn.

Follow up question: Could you have your commander join the stealth team during deployment if you did not infiltrate them (I.E. deployed them inside your deployment zone)?

The DS idea seems like another possibility. Stealth Teams can DS...XV8s can DS. Could I have them joined together in reserves and count them as one unit, and when it comes into play DS the whole unit together? That way I dont have to worry about any funky wording with the Infiltrate/Outflank rules.

The only concern I have here is that I wanted to outflank, because Acute Senses means I would get what flank I wanted 2/3 times. And they would all arrive safely. Deep strike can POTENTIALLY get them where I want them...but I want the unit to be 1 XV8, 6 XV25s, 14 Gun Drones...so that is a LOT to deepstrike. Kinda makes me nervous to even think of placing all those bases.

 Happyjew wrote:
There are two ways to read the Infiltrate rule (and both have been argued here):
1. An IC without Infiltrate cannot join a unit that has the Infiltrate rule during deployment.
2. An IC without Infiltrate cannot deploy with a unit that is deploying via the Infiltrate special rule.

If you read it as 1, the IC cannot Outflank with them.
If you read it as 2, the IC is able to Outflank with them.

And #2 is the most sensible answer, since otherwise you would, for no apparent reason, be banned from deploying a unit with the Infiltrate rule on the table normally (using neither special deployment option) with an IC attached, while the IC could legally join the unit right next to it just because it happens to lack the Infiltrate rule.

After getting some opinions, I think I will go with the "Never able to infiltrate with them...but can outflank with them" interpretation. I will try it at my game this saturday and see what the GW guy says.

I am really looking forward to seeing what kind of damage a stealth team blob with more fusion and hit and run can do in my enemies deployment zone.

Hit and run requires an initiative test remember.

While infiltrate is pretty exhaustive about not allowing an IC without infiltrate usr to join the unit and deploy via infiltrate, you are allowed to outflank the whole blob with IC already attached.

Yes, hit and run takes an initiative check, but you take the highest in the unit...and with 14 gun drones I have a good chance of having initiative 4 for the check, so most times it would be 50/50.

Also, the hit and run is mostly an "oh crud" option. I dont want them in close combat. First, assault moves should keep the distance a good length, next a flamer, some fusion and a MASS of str5 fire (with pinning too) should disuade charges...the hit and run it when I eventually DO get into close combat...and knowing the people I play against, the WILL eventually charge me. I just want the unit to count before it gets wiped.

 Isean wrote:
Yes, hit and run takes an initiative check, but you take the highest in the unit...and with 14 gun drones I have a good chance of having initiative 4 for the check, so most times it would be 50/50.

Also, the hit and run is mostly an "oh crud" option. I dont want them in close combat. First, assault moves should keep the distance a good length, next a flamer, some fusion and a MASS of str5 fire (with pinning too) should disuade charges...the hit and run it when I eventually DO get into close combat...and knowing the people I play against, the WILL eventually charge me. I just want the unit to count before it gets wiped.

I assume you are talking about the Vector thruster wargear? That one can start another debate also. While the SR may apply to the whole unit if one model ahsit, (no BRB here), the Tau codex limits it to IC and single suit teams.

I thought it said that only ICs without drones, and single-model squads could take it, not that they were the only ones to benefit. If not, then it looks like it's the Karandras' Stealth debate all over again.

 Isean wrote:
(with pinning too)

Can you cause a pinning check with over watch? I had never though of that!

Overwatch cannot cause Pinning.

 Happyjew wrote:
I thought it said that only ICs without drones, and single-model squads could take it, not that they were the only ones to benefit.

That's correct. That and a Tau XV-8 Commander is only an IC as long as he has no bodyguard or drones. Which also prevents Shadowsun from being able to join Stealthsuits, which would make the unit so much better if she could join.

A full 6 man stealthsuit squad with drones caps out at 12. 2 less really doesn't make a difference though when you're looking at that many S5 hits.

Thanks for that. The way he worded it in line with flamers I thought he meant the over watch fire would dissuade chargers, not the normal fire.

On another line of thought, couldn't GW avoid a lot of this if they just made Scout, Infiltrate and Outflank completely differently special rules? Instead of Scout and Infiltrate conferring outflank?

It would only one round of FAQs adding the rule where appropriate and 8 more letters in each new codex when needed!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I thought it said that only ICs without drones, and single-model squads could take it, not that they were the only ones to benefit.

That's correct. That and a Tau XV-8 Commander is only an IC as long as he has no bodyguard or drones. Which also prevents Shadowsun from being able to join Stealthsuits, which would make the unit so much better if she could join.

A full 6 man stealthsuit squad with drones caps out at 12. 2 less really doesn't make a difference though when you're looking at that many S5 hits.

A Tau XV-8 Commander is an IC with drones. He can still join units with them. Only when he takes a bodyguard does he lose his IC. Shadowsun is different, she only gains IC when she loses her drones. Right?

Good to know I can't cause pinning on overreach. But yes a Shas'el with two drones is still an IC and could take the vector thrusters which would then apply to whole stealth team.

 Isean wrote:
Good to know I can't cause pinning on overreach. But yes a Shas'el with two drones is still an IC and could take the vector thrusters which would then apply to whole stealth team.

Except in order to have Retro-thrusters you cannot have Drones.

 Isean wrote:
The DS idea seems like another possibility. Stealth Teams can DS...XV8s can DS. Could I have them joined together in reserves and count them as one unit, and when it comes into play DS the whole unit together? That way I dont have to worry about any funky wording with the Infiltrate/Outflank rules.

The only concern I have here is that I wanted to outflank, because Acute Senses means I would get what flank I wanted 2/3 times. And they would all arrive safely. Deep strike can POTENTIALLY get them where I want them...but I want the unit to be 1 XV8, 6 XV25s, 14 Gun Drones...so that is a LOT to deepstrike. Kinda makes me nervous to even think of placing all those bases.

Just a note here that you already had a 2/3 chance, with a reroll you would have a ((2/3) + (1/3)(2/3)) = (8/9) chance. That just bugged me for some reason :p.