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Brother Captain Alexander wrote:There are Fallen who actually feel guilty for what they have done and they decided to hind among the Human population and redeem themselves by helping out others. This is a little stupid to me because everybody can recognize 8 feet tall giant that is wide as two or three Humans.

When we keep in mind that there are Ogryns as a tolerated near-human subspecies, it is, or so I think, actually not that difficult to consider an ex-Astartes hiding out amongst the population. Mutations take many forms, and body size is one of them. Not to mention worlds where the people naturally grow so bulky (Catachans) that a former Space Marine could pass simply as "a bit bigger than the rest". Seriously, google what an incredible range in body height/mass we have in our real world, you'd be surprised!

I for one consider it possible that a "naked" Marine could simply slip into well-concealing robes and hide amongst, for example, the people in some underhive. Living conditions are so gakky down there that I don't think many will be concerned with the body size of some good samaritan. People just have other priorities, not to mention that this is also where a whole lot of "other" mutants will be found. I mean, just look at the Scavvie gangs in Necromunda, specifically the Scalies (a stable reptilian form of human mutation) who are said to be "almost as broad as they are tall".
It really depends on the world/culture in question, though, and I would expect the majority of ex-DA's to be found out sooner or later because few of them will be able to adapt to their new home fast and well enough to avoid calling the attention of various Imperial authorities down on him before expiring. Regardless of the Imperium's general dismissive stance towards the dregs of society, its feelers extend into every level.

On a sidenote, Space Marines are still "just" ~7 feet in GW's world. I know the 8 seems to be more popular lately, but it hasn't found its way into studio material yet.

Thank you for listing some of the book's fluff, though! Most of it was new for me, though I vaguely recall having seen bits and pieces in older material. GW has a habit of occasionally reprinting things, and in 6E in particular I noticed a lot of old stuff resurface again word for word.

jareddm wrote:This one bothers me a bit as it seems to be a trend for every time a new piece of equipment is added to a marine codex. The Grey Knights had a similar explanation for much of their gear. I'm not saying every marine dex should have access to them but I'd rather it be that the AM wished no one had access to these particular STCs but had to provide them to the Dark Angels to pay off some ancient debt, under the conditions that they are not shared beyond The Unforgiven (Not that the Dark Angels would do that anyway).

It does seem a bit weird, in that I too would not have considered the Astartes to be that independent from the AdMech. I mean, just reproducing the "common" patterns, sure. But whipping up something entirely new? I would imagine even the Mechanicus taking a lot of time and resources to make use of a recovered STC, most of whom are damaged to a point where complete recovery just isn't possible and you have to fill in the rest with your own creativity.

On the other hand it certainly fits with the idea that the Marines are sort of preserving the Imperium as imagined by the Emperor, at least in some fashion, with some Astartes "enclaves" not only being socially superior but sporting a greater understanding of technology as well. Not what I would have liked to see, but I can't shake off the suspicion.

As for exclusive AdMech deals, indeed it would have been a viable alternative - we know they're doing such contracts because it was referenced in the Immolator background.

jareddm wrote:Hell I'm sure half the gangs on Necromunda have at least one 7 foot tall guy hopped up on steroids that, at least visually, a space marine could pass for.

Maybe those are the guys who get to carry the heavy bolters.

[edit] Hey, turns out GW even sells what I assume to be a Scaly! Second guy from the top left?

Grey Templar wrote:Space Marine Chapters are often self-sufficient, having their own shipbased manufacturing capabilities. It is in the best interest of their purpose to be independent of any ties that make them dependent on anyone else.

I know that - it's why I specifically referred to coming up with entirely new stuff rather than producing "licensed copies". In essence, I would not have thought that a Chapter's Tech-Marines would be that good, given the focus of their training. I don't quite see how they would have acquired the know-how.

For what it's worth, the Astartes are still dependent on the AdMech for training new Tech-Marines and the High Lords for the gene-seed, anyways. Although the former could be overcome by in-house training, I guess.
In the end, the Chaos Warbands are a good example in showing us how Space Marines can keep operating even after cutting off all ties - perhaps with reduced efficiency, but more freedoms in other areas.

Grey Templar wrote:Also, remember many of the Fallen were once Knights of Caliban. They were actually too old to become space marines, so they were just given additional implants and surgery to at least be able to function as an Astartes, but they were still just heavily augmented humans. So they could indeed pass as a regular human amoung a normal population.

Huh, I didn't think of that - good point!

Beaviz81 wrote:Sounds like a massive change in direction as the Lion waking up and turning the tide would make the corpse that is the IOM resurrect. Maybe in a fanfiction-universe that can happen, but not this as I like the actual hopelessness of wh40k.

I don't see a change quite yet - Jonson being alive is one of the bits I know from old books. Or was the comment in response to Galdos? In that case I'd agree, not to mention that I would doubt that a single Primarch could have such an effect. It's not like Angron was such a beast lately... compared to the mythos, anyways.

By the way ... did the new DA 'dex use this wording, by any chance?
"Buried even deeper within the Rock, is the final, greatest secret of the Chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth - the Emperor himself. For hidden inside the secluded, unreachable chamber at the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against its enemies."
That's taken from the 2E Codex: Angels of Death ... GW has been digging up a lot of old material lately; entire pages of the fluff in the 6E rulebook have been ripped straight out of the Codex Imperialis.

Hmm, sounds as if a return would kick up some interesting political issues... On the other hand, my scepticism regarding GW's ability to do anything post-M41 is just too strong to wish for something like that.

Did any of the other Primarchs ever receive TT stats, by the way? I only know Angron's.

MunGo_0600 wrote:Fulgrim, Horus, Angron and Mortarion have stats released for them, with all of the other primarchs in the works.

Do you happen to recall the Codex name or WD issue number?
Might be something to add to my list of resources. :3

MandalorynOranj wrote:Also, they've said they're going to do a model of the Emperor, so that hopefully means rules for him too.

wat

Fezman wrote:Interesting to see that the Imperium might be getting a Primarch helping them out in the "present;" whether this gets taken any further by GW is another matter.

The setting is "stuck" at 999.M41 since about 25 years. GW has been adding details (perhaps too many), but has been fairly adamant about refraining from any progress past the "5 minutes before midnight" theme.
The only new thing (at least to me - maybe I just missed an earlier source) would be the Rock actually being mobile and moving (through the Warp?!) towards the Gateway sector. Even if it ever gets there, Jonson will still be stuck in stasis, although I'd certainly see an option for some sort of event triggering his release. Hypothetically speaking.

Meh, I was hoping for GW stats, actually - like Angron's here. I have a feeling FW will try to stick close to the novels. :/

Hmmh, I see! So, still sleeping, but they clarified he's fully healed now. Kind of sounds like he may just have been accidentally (or intentionally?) forgotten there...

... or perhaps that his Chapter's leaders don't dare to wake him up, simultaneously risking to lose him forever if he gets killed in some random battle. By this time, something like a Primarch may appear to some like a trump card you're supposed to play only once, and only when you really need it, hence the bit about a hypothetical "last battle".

Or am I reading too much into this?

Anyways, thanks for the full quote!

Well, they would have to invite him. There is no such thing as a "Lord Commander of the Imperium" as a permanent seat on the Senatorum, so it really comes down to how much the High Lords are able to play ball - aka if they'd feel duty-bound to seek aid and surrender bits of their influence, or if they'd go all "nnnoooooo it's miiiinnnneeee!"

Without knowing the current High Lords better, I cannot say what situation I'd predict, but both scenarios are possible, imho.

A couple of the more recent posts here seem to be coloured not just by Astartes-favouritism but outright dislike of core aspects of the "current" Imperium, foremost its most important organisations (minus the AdMech; I'm continuously amazed why only one of the two superstitious backwards and oppressive cults attracts such a strong reaction).

The Ultramarines controlling an entire segmentum?
And all Marines just siding with the Dark Angels and waging war against 99% of the Imperium "just like that", at a time where it is already under siege - basically stabbing humanity in the back?
And Cadia just conveniently "forgetting" centuries of Munitorum propaganda and Ministorum education? And the millions of troops from all across the galaxy that have been sent there just happily playing along?

Nope. Just nope. That reads like an array of bad fan-fiction where things just happen to fall into place in a way that suits the titular hero. I don't even know what the Dark Angels are supposed to achieve at Cadia that nobody else could, with or without a Primarch. But I suppose that is largely because I see the Primarchs as quite vulnerable and fallible rather than some sort of invincible demigod (like I hear they may be presented in certain novels), so it may just be that it's not "my" grimdark 40k that is being discussed here.

If Jonson ever wakes from his slumber - and I don't see this subject being touched by GW anytime soon - he will certainly be treated like a saint by most common people and Marines, yet him falling in battle would have an incredible backlash on the recently boosted morale that any fight he joins will be a huge risk to the Imperium. So much so that should he die, the knowledge of this would certainly be suppressed. Consider that on qutie a number of worlds, people grow up on stories about the Primarchs - legends that are just treated as fact by the IoM at large. Jonson's final sacrifice would call them all into question.

I could actually see the High Lords try to turn him into a pencil pusher. In this sense, a seat on the Senatorum might be a really good idea, provided that this close circle can accept a "newcomer" who is completely unfamiliar with the political game handling such power.

Either way, any sort of civil war even as Abbadon's 13th Crusade is still ongoing would break the Imperium's back, and with it the frail remains of hope left for humanity as a faction amongst the stars.

Red Viper: Thanks! That's an awesome image. Never heard of this scenario - they should've put that into a WD

Galdos wrote:The dumbest thing they could do would be to say that they activelly defy the will of the Emperor which is represented in one of his sons.

The funny thing is that the High Lords also represent the will of the Emperor. They just have more political pull with all the major Imperial organisations.

You know, they could simply claim he's a traitor and wants to start a second Heresy.

Grey Templar wrote:If a Primarch returned, the commoners of the Imperium would rejoice. Its a Primarch for feths sake.
If the High Lords were at odds with a Primarch masses of the basic peoples would rally to the Primarchs side.
Thats why I think the High Lords wouldn't dare oppose a primarch returning.

The masses of the basic people will do what their Preachers and Confessors tell them. Who in turn do what the Ecclesiarch tells them. Who will do what the Council of High Lords votes on.

A Primarch may play a huge role in various legends and epic tales of folklore, but they could be dismantled pretty fast if Imperial propaganda is dedicated to do so. Unlike the Imperium of Man, a lone Primarch climbing out of the mobile fortress of one of the most reclusive Chapters of the independent-minded and loosely affiliated Adeptus Astartes will not have much in terms of contacts he could rely on to do stuff like, you know, even reaching the ears of the "masses of the basic people", much less turn them to his side. It's not like the IoM has some sort of internet where Jonson could just go online and post crazy conspiracy theories on a public platform, calling upon activists to raise up against "the establishment".

Galdos wrote:Who would DARE SIDE AGAINST A PRIMARCH!? The Imperial Guard, Navy, and Space Marines would support the Lion in fething mass. The Inquisition would also. The Church would also.

I'm gonna keep this short: Why?

Galdos wrote:Also who Primarchs are are well known in the Imperium, indeed Guilliman in stasis is like the second largest pilgramage spot in the Imperium.

That I know to be just flat-out wrong. It may be so within Ultramar, but codex and rulebook fluff actually touched upon pilgrimages and the most popular ones were on the opposite side of the galaxy. The most famous pilgrimage route is Ophelia VII -> Chiros -> Gathalamor -> Terra.

Or was this retconned by a new Codex? If so, I'd like to know. :3

Galdos wrote:Not to mention that there are plenty of stories of characters acknowledging the Primarchs.

Most of whom only told on the handful of planets under direct control of the Space Marines, I'd presume. The Imperium of Man has a vast number of saints and stories, and for quite some time the Ecclesiarchy has been in a minor schism with the Adeptus Astartes, torn between their biological connection to the Emperor and their continueing defiance of the Imperial Creed.

I have a feeling some posters are completely dismissing the effects of Imperial propaganda, indoctrination and infiltration here. People in the Imperium grow up hanging on the lips of Ministorum clerics. A figure from legends past showing up would surely raise confusion, but I don't see why exactly the citizens should forget the officials they're used to obey and believe in favour of some mythical hero they've never met even once in their life, and who is rather unlikely to show up in person on their little planet. I mean, isn't it obvious that - should a conflict truly occur - the Ecclesiarchy would just go "o horror, our God-Emperor weepetht, for one of his most favourite sons hath turneth from the light, corrupted in his slumber by the voices of dreadful daemons" and people would just go "rabblerabblerabble"?

Because in the end, Emperor > Primarch, and I don't really see a reason why the common citizen should suddenly disbelieve the clerics they trusted all their life so far. They are not aware of the political infighting. They only know what they are told - by the very organisations that Jonson would have to fight. It'd take some major event to "wake people up", and I just don't know how exactly you think that would occur?

Ah, the Brothers Karamazov.

It gets more grimdark if you consider that the guy arrested and burned by Lord Inquisitor Karamazov in 40k was believed by Thorian Inquisitors and the Ecclesiarchy to be a vessel for the Emperor's resurrection.

Melissia wrote:Slightly more grimdark when you consider the fact that the post-execution investigation proved that Karamazov was RIGHT.

I dunno ... I actually like the idea of the various Imperial agencies sometimes working against the Emperor's vision, even sabotaging it. I guess my thirst for this dystopian aspect of the setting is why I like 40k so much more than the Brighthammer HH stuff with its shiny heroes. Not to mention the old Inquisition fluff about the big conspiracy to prevent Big E's rebirth out of fear it'd destroy the Imperium for good.

That being said, we could always theorise that Karamazov just faked the evidence to save his hide, as completely unsupported as this is by the material itself.

How is the argument moot? You do not supply much for why anyone should care about Jonson, you just say "they'd listen to him" as if you'd present a fact rather than a theory.

I'm leaning towards most of the Astartes doing it (at least as long as it doesn't devolve into an all-out civil war where a Chapter would have to decide between the Dark Angels or Terra), but I just don't see why a returning Primarch should completely override the command structure people grew up in simply by climbing out of his rock.

Cadia is populated by what amounts to be a heavily militarised and disciplined society. They will do what their superior officer tells them. This means that the Cadians will listen to Creed, and barring some exceptional event I don't see why Creed should favour Jonson over Segmentum Command and the Munitorum.

The Sisters of Battle believe in the Emperor, his "sons" do not play much of a role in the Imperial Creed. The connection is part of why the Ecclesiarchy appears a bit split on how to deal with the Astartes, but obviously this has not prevented purge missions to occur in the past, not to mention an underlying rivalry between specific Orders Militant and Astartes Chapters. The Space Wolves and the Blood Angels joining forces with Jonson would be an obvious turn-off for the Sisterhood, even if they'd consider splitting from the Ecclesiarchy - and you can forget about that as well; they're much too indoctrinated and faithful for that.

Lastly, the Custodes ... what leads you to just assume they'd pick sides rather than standing on the side as they did during the Age of Apostasy?

captain collius wrote:They would see him lead 10,000 astartes against chaos and smashing them right back into the warp Creed is a smart guy he could put 2 and 2 together.

Those 10.000 Astartes are already in the area, trying to stem the invasion. Jonson adding to their number might have a morale effect because of "it's a Primarch!!!", but how much that would affect the actual military campaign remains doubtful.
Unless you buy into this "invincible demigod" stuff and take all those legends and fairytales as truth rather than taking into account that many of them are even criticised within the setting.

In fact, Jonson may have a problem with the reputation of his Chapter. The Imperial Navy almost opened fire on the Dark Angels' ships over Armageddon because the military was pissed they were withdrawing their forces just like that. And this is not the only story we have about the Dark Angels forsaking their allies and having a fairly bad rep as far as reliability is concerned. And that's just what GW wrote about them!

The Dark Angels showing up around Cadia will have Creed wonder how long they'll stay around this time rather than cheering in relief. After all, it's impossible to include them as a factor in a campaign - you'll never know if they actually stick to the plan, even if they'd be willing to talk it over with you. Which, more often than not, they won't.

Well, if it'd be the Ultras I imagine they'd be more welcome, but the Dark Angels just don't have the same rep.

Sir Samuel Buca does raise a good point about how the vast distances and the delay in interstellar communication could impact any attempts by the High Lords to take steps against Jonson, though. If he just shows up somewhere faraway, he'd surely have at least several weeks or even months until they'd even become aware that there's a Primarch walking around. And the first reports would likely be regarded with some suspicion, either thinking it's an impostor or a mistake.

I'm still sceptical as to whether it would, hypothetically, truly be that easy for him to just assume command based on his status. Imperial decree dictates a firm separation between Astartes and other Imperial forces unless authorised by the very same organisations that some posters argue Jonson would have to fight.
I could see it happen, I just don't think the matter it is as crystal-clear as some people apparently assume.

PS: I did make a mistake with my comment regarding Armageddon, though - turns out that was another Chapter! >_<

Melissia wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:[...]

That is a MUCH more fluff-worthy piece of speculation. None of this "and then everyone would instantly love him" nonsense, have him actually build up support and act in an intelligent manner.

Have to agree. Deeds would go a long way to make people - quite likely even the High Lords - appreciate him as a capable defender of the Imperium, rather than regard him as a threat to stability.
His leadership could also cleanse the Dark Angels of that dreaded stigma of unreliability, assuming that he wouldn't tolerate shenanigans such as his troops simply withdrawing from a fight or refusing to coordinate with other Imperial forces. I imagine it would take a while, especially since there are so many notable armies pulling off valiant things, but huge campaigns such as Armageddon or the 13th Black Crusade are like a furnace where legends are wrought.

Admiral Valerian wrote:I've noticed some people here are disregarding the Horus Heresy series and other BL publications...I've already had this conversation with Manchu before; fan spank aside, BL and FW are both GW-affiliated companies, and therefore, their work is just as 'canon' as GW's own publications.

Unfortunately, all the material being of equal value does not, in far too many cases, make it any more "compatible" to each other...

DarthMarko wrote:People seem to forget that Lion had big ambition pre-heresy - heresy....

That could become a problem. That said, apparently he had no problem leaving the reformation of the Imperium to Guilliman and the rest of the Senatorum, returning to Caliban in grief rather than worrying about any political power. Plus, he seems to harbour an enormous hatred for Chaos. I would suspect him to focus entirely on Abaddon and his forces, actually.

DarthMarko wrote:Also Emperor speaking through hlot or sisters, I mean is this a fact, or their theory ? No offense....

Depends on how you read/interpret GW's fluff. I tend to be sceptical and thus think it is propaganda* ... just like I think the Primarch legends are really just that - legends (although with some truth at their core, just distorted by millennia of oral tradition and exaggeration). Officially, the High Lords basically act as the Emperor's mouthpiece, their task being to interpret his divine will and act accordingly. I'm not sure whether or not the High Lords actually believe this themselves, but I wouldn't put it past them to have long sessions where they meditate on an issue in the hopes of their God-Emperor guiding their thoughts in the Senatorum's decision-making process.

For the Sisterhood, the Codex just mentions that their Founding Saints were invited to an audience before the Golden Throne, which apparently opened their eyes regarding Vandire, prompting their leader to end his reign with a strike of her power sword. The text implies they spoke with/to the Emperor, but again, I'm sceptical and suspect either (a) the Custodes somehow managed to sway their mind with proof of Vandire's evil, (b) they actually were led to a secret meeting with Sebastian Thor, or (c) they were tricked by an elaborate hoax where someone faked the Emperor's voice as if his demi-corpse would be a marionette.

Not that it would matter much, mind you. People grow up "knowing" that the High Lords speak for the Emperor. Why should they doubt it? That's how propaganda works.


*: Yeah, I'm operating on the belief that the Emperor isn't talking to anyone these days. To me, he is like a lobotomised figurehead whose mind is shackled to the singular task of keeping the Astronomican alight, basically acting like a conduit for the Psykers sacrificed to fuel it. I mean, he used to be able to do it by himself, no?

I won't discount the possibility that his spirit is still intact and active enough to have some form of conscience, and even contact various people's minds and guide them via visions like the Ecclesiarchy preaches, but for the time being I will continue to believe that this is all just wishy-washy religious stuff that people are telling themselves and others to make them feel better. More grimdark this way.

Anytime. I love discussing this sort of stuff.

Oh, for references - the bit about the High Lords is mentioned in the fluff appendix of the 6E rulebook (originating from the Codex Imperialis; they just copypasted the whole article), whereas the audience of Alicia Dominica and her five companions is discussed in the SoB Codex' section on the Age of Apostasy.

jareddm wrote:Which is more likely? A primarch returning to life and leading his chapter, as well as 99% of their successors all uniting under his control, or a chapter in the midst of falling to chaos, something with a great deal of precedence, who is being controlled by some demonic being/artifact/whatever that is making them believe it's their primarch?

That is a fairly good point - especially considering the Dark Angels already being treated with suspicion because of their weird behaviour in the ongoing attempt to hide their great secret.

One of the big ironies in 40k fluff, by the way - if they would've come out with the truth right away, I don't think the Imperium would have condemned them.

Bobthehero wrote:Death Korps, 100% pure quality never faltering human lemmings.

My mind just auto-conjured an image of 8-bit pixel Guardsmen running across a two-dimensional battlefield, whilst the player is putting down trenches, ladders and Commissars. "How many Krieg Guardsmen can you guide into the breach?"

Somebody turn this into a game!

Omegus wrote:Ultramar being a mini-empire of 500 worlds is mentioned by a number of authors in several Black Library novels. Even in studio material, there have been mentions of more than eight systems. Matt Ward is just slowed.

I do not think this has to do anything with Matt Ward. The Realm of Ultramar consisting of eight systems is also mentioned in the Index Astartes as well as in the 2E Codex Ultramarines. This has been in the studio fluff for almost 20 years now, and I have not read of any contradiction in GW books so far. Where did you spot them, exactly?

Inhabited worlds within the Realm of Ultramar:

Macragge

Talassar

Quintarn

Tarentus

Masali

Calth

Iax

Espandor

Let's face it, authors in outsourced products just write a lot of stuff when the day is long. This isn't a new phenomenon. In this case, I would presume that Dan Abnett simply did not know where this information could be found. Or he did not care enough to look it up. I mean, we are talking about the very same writer who - from what I've heard by his readers - thinks that Servitors drive Space Marine tanks and act as Navigators, or that all IG lasguns have charge sliders.

Omegus wrote:Now granted, there are no longer 500 worlds left, considering Lorgar and Angron put a few dozen to the sword, and I'm sure the Tyranids nomnomed a fair number as well.

The fluff from the aforementioned GW sources only mentions one world of Ultramar ever destroyed - Prandium, which was turned into a lifeless rock during the First Tyrannic War.

BryllCream wrote:OT - Seems strange to knock Dan Abnett on fluff. Guy's a professional author (unlike the fluff in codexes), and is insanely popular. He splices grim-dark tragedy with the realism nessesary to have believable charectors. Lay off him

Oh, don't get me wrong, I won't criticise his writing style or his skill as a storyteller! I've purchased his GG omnibus myself. I'm just saying that Dan in particular has a, shall we say, reputation of having his own little version of 40k (I heard the term "Abnettverse" is fairly popular) even moreso than other authors. And given that minor deviations from studio material are rather common in licensed products, that's gotta say something.

It's not necessarily a bad thing. 40k doesn't have a true "canon" (in the sense of one big, consistent background) and some people may actually prefer his take on the setting. I'm just saying that his readers shouldn't be surprised if they stumble over inconsistencies.

On a sidenote, why shouldn't the guys who write the codices not count as professional authors? They're game designers first and foremost, yet ultimately they too write stuff and it sells. Short stories in the codices and issues of White Dwarf as well as products like the Index Astartes even focus on this aspect of their work, and a number of them have begun "branching out" by writing novels for the Black Library now.

The only difference that I see is that the writers of Codex fluff focus on crafting a world just for the world's sake (creating a setting for the players to use), whereas novel authors focus on telling one specific story about one specific hero and wrap the details - including world design - around that. Which occasionally results in things being different just because it serves the plot or makes the read a "more epic" experience. Prime example, Space Marines getting bigger and bigger in the books, so much so that even GW employees started to publicly joke about the trend (Jes Goodwin on the design podcast).

I agree about the variety. What a story is all about is not as important as it being well written and fits into the world - so if an acclaimed author thinks he could do a cool book about X, then by all means, why not let him? It will appeal to someone. Not every novel out there has to pander the same few focus groups.

On the other hand, I do agree that it could be a liability in terms of financial return, but from how I understand novels to work, the author carries most of the risk.

Exalted as well. This is awesome.