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So not just for entertainment and opinions which do you think is better in a game and specifically in the Branches of

1. Survival

2. Dropping the Deathwing

3. Close Combat

4. Ranged Combat

5. War gear

Ravenwing Command or Black knights


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally i think the Black knights are better because you don't need an HQ ion a bike to field them and they have those wonderful grenade launchers but as i said this is not about my opinion so my next post i will have run some simulations for both against the same gauntlet featured in the last whit dwarf.

My somewhat rushed opinion is that the Black Knights fare better in all those categories because there can be more than 3 of them in the unit.

As above.

3 bikes in a command squad will not last long. If you want the banners, go DW command squad in a landraider.

My first Simulations (3 Black Knights vs the Command squad in the Gauntlet) was very informative. As was the case with the Terminators in the White dwarf sim they didn't win Close combat with the orks however the Plasma Talons on both side did rip a heavy toll from the orks before combat started and then with hit and run giving them that extra chance for the plasma talons the bike almost one out against the orks however on the second round of combat the Command bike failed their moral check and fled to the edge and dyed (Nob killed the banner bearer first round and thats the only reason they fled)as for the Black Knights they faired much better surviving into an additional 3 rounds of combat and by the end it was the Nob Vs the Huntsmaster and he punched him with the claw and killed him.

Command Squad:0

Black Knights:1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Next Stage of the Gauntlet coming soon.

Black knights are phenomenal. Just played 2 games with them this past week... Wow! I will run them as a matter of course for quite awhile.

Also, those grenade launchers are deceptionaly good. Dropping Palladins to T3 (ID now from Plasma Talons) or slowing a CSM squad down to I3 for the charge can't be passed over.

So the Second test is in and this time i did two separate tests with 3 and 6 Black Knights and the Command Vs a unit of 8 chosen. The Command Squad got bogged Down and even though they always broke away and got the charge each assault they didn't live past the fourth round of combat (even though they killed 5 of the chosen) and the 3 Black Knights didn't fair much better escaping the fact they they ended up killing all but 1 of the chosen into two more rounds of Combat. But the unit of 6 Black Knight faired so much better finishing of the chosen in only 3 rounds of combat and only losing 2 of their own number.

Ravenwing Command Squad:0

Black Knights:2

Do both Black Knights and Ravenwing Command use TL Plasma on the bikes, or does the kit come with regular bike bolters too?

And is the DA iconography for the bikes additional - meaning can they be used for regular SM armies without a lot of work removing DA symbols?

It's surprising that the Command Squad is only 3 bikes vs the SM 5 bikes - was it like that in the older DA codex?

In my eyes, the whole point of the RW Command Squad is to have a mobile banner. The Command Squad is almost entirely a support unit. Keep it safe and protect it so that it can continue providing nice things like a FNP bubble or turning your basic RW squads in to roving vulcan cannons with the Standard of Devastation. In direct combat the Black Knights are always going to come out ahead (especially since non-DW champions blow) because there are more of them. But a FNP bubble on T5 models is a very nice thing. Banners alone make Command Squads lovely additions to an army.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
In my eyes, the whole point of the RW Command Squad is to have a mobile banner. The Command Squad is almost entirely a support unit. Keep it safe and protect it so that it can continue providing nice things like a FNP bubble or turning your basic RW squads in to roving vulcan cannons with the Standard of Devastation. In direct combat the Black Knights are always going to come out ahead (especially since non-DW champions blow) because there are more of them. But a FNP bubble on T5 models is a very nice thing. Banners alone make Command Squads lovely additions to an army.

Err normal apothecaries only affect their unit, this aint Blood Angels!

But the FNP banner isn't restricted the same way.

Chrysis wrote:
But the FNP banner isn't restricted the same way.

Ahh sorry, I thought he was talking about the unit if they took devastation banner and an apoth

Yeah, that's why I specified that they were useful mostly for being able to take banners. The Apothecary isn't huge, though if you grab the Dakka Banner or the Company Banner it does give a bit of added protection to the command squad. but if you are going for the uber-tough Black Knight strike force utilizing a Librarian with a Power Field Generator, a FNP bubble and a Dark Shroud for support, then the Apothecary should stay home for that one.

Banners making their return is one of the biggest developments for the Dark Angels in over a decade. And that we can give the full range to more than just our power armoured, footslogging command squad is even bigger. Proper use of a Sacred Standard (or any of the other useful ones) is a big force multiplier.

How about placing a command squad in a rhino and tag along behind the ravenwing knights unit. You can get huge dakka output or fnp and the command in a rhino could get protection from a shroud as could the knights.

 Ventus wrote:
Do both Black Knights and Ravenwing Command use TL Plasma on the bikes, or does the kit come with regular bike bolters too?

And is the DA iconography for the bikes additional - meaning can they be used for regular SM armies without a lot of work removing DA symbols?

It's surprising that the Command Squad is only 3 bikes vs the SM 5 bikes - was it like that in the older DA codex?

Yes they both use plasma talons no its all dark angel iconography (the the raven-wing biker kit doesn't and is cheaper then three regular bikes) and even if the command squad is only 3 bike you can take 10 Black Knights in one unit which is better by far then the command Squad (or so the simulations are saying right now).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My favorite Strategy is to put the Commanders of my army in with the 10 Black Knights and then have them trailed by a dark shroud so on the jink its3 or better cover and then a 4 up invuln save in CC (hate that it gives it to my opponents to) and then us a chaplain to give them hatred on top of (hopefully) getting some good support powers from my librarian so they are even tougher. And then drop the Deathwing as an added bonus. And the icing on the cake is that for the first round of combat they will be fighting slower weaker targets to.

 Lobukia wrote:
Black knights are phenomenal. Just played 2 games with them this past week... Wow! I will run them as a matter of course for quite awhile.

Also, those grenade launchers are deceptionaly good. Dropping Palladins to T3 (ID now from Plasma Talons) or slowing a CSM squad down to I3 for the charge can't be passed over.

Yeah, those Black Knight will have their use in a DA army, while RW Cmd squads are too small.

Third test is in against the Necron Lychguard and i see a pattern here. The Black Knights delt allot of damage in ranged combat (Firing 2 stasis rounds to keep the Necrons on the Down low) and then blasting them with the Plasma talons Taking out 3 and then having only 2 stand back up and in close combat they killed them down to 1 necron but unfortunately all of them stood back up (even though only one Necron got to fight back) and on the second round They Slaughtered the Necrons to a man and flew of to take on the Swarm Lord(Which is ironic seeing as how they couldn't Bring them down when they were weak But destroyed them when they were back to normal). the Command squad Fared About the same losing only one Veteran (Sadly the Champion was struck from his bike as he tried to decapitate the Head lychGuard) but they did kill all of them albeit in 3 more turns then the Black Knights.

RavenWing Command Squad: 0.5

Black Knights: 3

I know the numbers don't add up but i had to give the Command Credit after all they did completely kill the test target and only lose one guy.

And the final test is in against the swarmlord for the black Knights they reduced the swarmlord to one wound in the first round of shooting and then lost a man in close combat and then they broke and killed him in the second round of shooting but the command squad only took one wound of the bat and didnt deal any damage to the swarmlord for the first two rounds of both melee and ranged combat and then dyed completely in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

Final Results
Ravenwing Command Squad:0.5

BlackKnights:4