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So I'm looking over the Ravenwing Command Squad entry in the new codex and for the champion upgrade it states that one black knight in the army can be upgraded to a champion, but it doesn't state that the upgrade has to be in the command squad itself. The Deathwing command squad was also FAQed to have similar wording. I feel like the wording definitely leaves it open to be interpreted that the upgraded character doesn't have to be in the command squad or else why would they use the term "in the army" instead of "in one command squad per army". I'm also feeling like it can be any black knight or termie in the army because they changed the language in the Deathwing Command entry but still left it open to be interpreted as any model in the army.

I've only heard one opinion on this which was someone who didn't really give a reason other than "of course it's supposed to go in the command squad, they only use that language to make sure you can only purchase one", but I'm still not convinced. Anyone have thoughts?

It kinda does, look where the option is listed. You don't use options for one unit to buy wargear for another.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It kinda does, look where the option is listed. You don't use options for one unit to buy wargear for another.

I would agree with you if it didn't use the term "in the army". And there are plenty of examples out there of purchasing an upgrade in one unit that opens up options in other units (though maybe not quite like this instance). I wouldn't be so unsure if the DA codex wasn't so obviously designed to have so much synergy. It just feels to me like if they were going to limit it to just the command squad they could have quite easily come up with much less confusing language (although considering GW's track record that might be a fairly laughable sentence.)

I think what it means is that a single command squad can upgrade to a champion per army. So if you have two command squads, only one of them can have the champion.

 LordRogalDorn wrote:
I think what it means is that a single command squad can upgrade to a champion per army. So if you have two command squads, only one of them can have the champion.

But couldn't you just as easily interpret it as written that as long as you have one of those types of command squad, one black knight or terminator in the army could be upgraded to a champion?

I'm not trying to be a rules lawyer here, but it feels as if there's really no concrete argument as to why you couldn't take it any squad other than traditionally speaking you couldn't have in the past.

Yes, 1 per army. The option is only for the command squads and you can have more than one DW or RW command squad.
So that is why it is limited to one per army, 2 command squads from the 1st company cannot have a champion each as that breaks the idea of a company champion when it's the same company.
It's not tradition that prevents you buying upgrades for unit A in unit B's wargear options, it is the bloody riles and logic that prevent it.

The solid argument that you cannot take it in any squad other than a command squad is that the options are only in the command squad.

If you think that works then why can't I purchase special wargear that is one per army on my HQ choices and equip it on squad sergeants? It is the same leap of logic.

By that logic, I can buy weapons for a chapter master and give them to other models...



seriously, the codex is not that hard to understand.

@Solo stop stealing my hyperbole examples!!!! lol

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It kinda does, look where the option is listed. You don't use options for one unit to buy wargear for another.

Really? I refer you to 4th edition DA Codex - Belial.

Sorry can you provide a quote, I don't have that codex to hand?

Also look at the unit entry in the army list section, the unit is comprised of DW TDA models, and that option names that model type as the recipient of the upgrade. It doesn't say one model in any unit, it says one model. There is no permission to do anything to any other unit.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Also look at the unit entry in the army list section, the unit is comprised of DW TDA models, and that option names that model type as the recipient of the upgrade. It doesn't say one model in any unit, it says one model. There is no permission to do anything to any other unit.

It got FAQed, official update states "One Deathwing Terminator in the army may be upgraded to the Deathwing Champion" Again, the offending term is in the army. I wouldn't assume you can purchase equipment for one unit and pass it to a sergeant, that's not even closer to the argument that I'm making here. No other HQ choice uses the term "One [insert model name here] in your army may do this" except these two entries.

Codex: Dark Angels(4th edition):
If Belial is in the army, one Deathwing Terminator Squad may be upgraded as follows:
-One Terminator may be upgraded to a Standard Bearer carrying the Deathwing Company Banner for +25 points.
-One Terminator may be upgraded to an Apothecary equipped with a narthecium/reductor for +30 points.

Current DA FAQ:
Page 95 – Deathwing Command Squad, options.
Change the second bullet point to: “• One Deathwing
Terminator in the army may be upgraded to the Deathwing
Champion, replacing all their weapons with the Halberd of
Caliban...............................................................................5 pts

Hmm my copy of the codex has the faq as part of it. Anyway, I don't see that as being analagous. The champions profile is listed in the unit where one lists the unit composition and upgrade profiles available. Unless I can include Lukas the trickster in skyclaws now cos that would be nice.

Can you give any substantive other than a HQ that allowed options? Cos the options listed are FOR THE COMMAND SQUAD.
The company champion is part of that unit. Just like all the other company champions in all of the other SM codices.

@OP there are one per army weapons do I get to take them on a HQ and put them somewhere else? Cos that is exactly the same issue as this. Can I give the Monster Slayer of Caliban to a sergeant if I buy it with my HQ?


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Since I can move upgrades from one unit to another, can I put the two plasma cannons from my 2 command squads in one unit?
How about the two banners?
Can I take the Land raider DT and deploy it loaded up with the tacticle squad I have?

LordRogalDorn wrote:I think what it means is that a single command squad can upgrade to a champion per army. So if you have two command squads, only one of them can have the champion.

This is not RAW, this is RAI - could be what they intended, but it is definitely not what they have said in the FAQ.

liturgies of blood wrote:Yes, 1 per army. The option is only for the command squads and you can have more than one DW or RW command squad.
So that is why it is limited to one per army, 2 command squads from the 1st company cannot have a champion each as that breaks the idea of a company champion when it's the same company.
It's not tradition that prevents you buying upgrades for unit A in unit B's wargear options, it is the bloody riles and logic that prevent it.
The solid argument that you cannot take it in any squad other than a command squad is that the options are only in the command squad.

Please show a rule that states that any of what you have stated here is true. Also, refer to my previous post with the quote from CA 4th edition.

liturgies of blood wrote:If you think that works then why can't I purchase special wargear that is one per army on my HQ choices and equip it on squad sergeants? It is the same leap of logic.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:By that logic, I can buy weapons for a chapter master and give them to other models...

Totally different argument, maybe try reading the FAQ.


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 liturgies of blood wrote:
Can you give any substantive other than a HQ that allowed options? Cos the options listed are FOR THE COMMAND SQUAD.
The company champion is part of that unit. Just like all the other company champions in all of the other SM codices.

Yep, just like Vanilla Razorbacks are 40 points, so DA Razorbacks must be too? Please try to look at the content that pertains to this argument - the DA codex and FAQ/Errata.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
@OP there are one per army weapons do I get to take them on a HQ and put them somewhere else? Cos that is exactly the same issue as this. Can I give the Monster Slayer of Caliban to a sergeant if I buy it with my HQ?

Since I can move upgrades from one unit to another, can I put the two plasma cannons from my 2 command squads in one unit?
How about the two banners?
Can I take the Land raider DT and deploy it loaded up with the tacticle squad I have?

Do any of these have options to do this in the codex or Errata/FAQ?

What? They don't? Oh, then I guess you are simply rehashing the same flawed argument over and over, using examples that do not have even a slight resemblance to the rules question posed in this thread.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Hmm my copy of the codex has the faq as part of it. Anyway, I don't see that as being analagous. The champions profile is listed in the unit where one lists the unit composition and upgrade profiles available. Unless I can include Lukas the trickster in skyclaws now cos that would be nice.

Can you give any substantive other than a HQ that allowed options? Cos the options listed are FOR THE COMMAND SQUAD.
The company champion is part of that unit. Just like all the other company champions in all of the other SM codices.

@OP there are one per army weapons do I get to take them on a HQ and put them somewhere else? Cos that is exactly the same issue as this. Can I give the Monster Slayer of Caliban to a sergeant if I buy it with my HQ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since I can move upgrades from one unit to another, can I put the two plasma cannons from my 2 command squads in one unit?
How about the two banners?
Can I take the Land raider DT and deploy it loaded up with the tacticle squad I have?

I feel like you're not reading my posts. I'm not arguing that because of the wording you can now take ANY upgrade and move it to ANY other unit. I'm stating that if you purchase a command squad, the way the rules are worded you are then capable of upgrading any one black knight or deathwing terminator in the army to a champion. That's it. Full stop.

confoo22 wrote:
I feel like you're not reading my posts. I'm not arguing that because of the wording you can now take ANY upgrade and move it to ANY other unit. I'm stating that if you purchase a command squad, the way the rules are worded you are then capable of upgrading any one black knight or deathwing terminator in the army to a champion. That's it. Full stop.

lob is ignoring the facts.

He is arguing from a RAI standpoint, and there is no RAW argument that makes sense, so he is trying to sensationalize the issue and make everyone that does not agree with him look like a crazy kook - but only succeeding in making himself look foolish.

Listen I know paint is delicious but it seems to be doing a disservice to your arguments. I'm sorry I treat an easter egg hunt with the scorn it deserves but there are players that will read this thread and think they can play this and get laughed out of it.

I gave an argument, it's called read the codex, looks at the context. It is clear that the codex champion is part of the command squad as his profile is written there. The errata or as I call it the contents of my codex, does not say one deathwing terminator in any unit in the army.
You seem to think it does. There have been 1 per army upgrades since I started playing and there will always be more. This is simply a case of one per army, that is what one X per amy means.

Find me the line that says you can explicitly upgrade any DA terminator in ANY UNIT to a champion.

Fine since I cannot talk about the SM codex you can take the Belial 4th ed example off the table. 6th ed codex only.
The reason I used that example is that while points cost vary SM codices have the same general structures and options for many of their units.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Listen I know paint is delicious but it seems to be doing a disservice to your arguments. I'm sorry I treat an easter egg hunt with the scorn it deserves but there are players that will read this thread and think they can play this and get laughed out of it.

I gave an argument, it's called read the codex, looks at the context. It is clear that the codex champion is part of the command squad as his profile is written there. The errata or as I call it the contents of my codex, does not say one deathwing terminator in any unit in the army.
You seem to think it does. There have been 1 per army upgrades since I started playing and there will always be more. This is simply a case of one per army, that is what one X per amy means.

Find me the line that says you can explicitly upgrade any DA terminator in ANY UNIT to a champion.

Fine since I cannot talk about the SM codex you can take the Belial 4th ed example off the table. 6th ed codex only.
The reason I used that example is that while points cost vary SM codices have the same general structures and options for many of their units.

His profile is written there because you have to purchase a command squad before you can upgrade the model. And I've already written the official errata here, but I'll do it again and this time I'll emphasize the part that I'm talking about:

"One Deathwing Terminator IN THE ARMY may be upgraded to the Deathwing Champion"

Except for the Ravenwing Command squad there is no other choice that uses that particular wording to describe an upgrade. And I really don't see how you can argue that this MUST mean that it's only for the command squad. There are examples of HQs giving upgrade possibilities to other units. And just because it's from an older codex doesn't mean it can't be brought back, i.e., the armory instead of just specific upgrades for units.

One in the army. As in one only. That is how everyone else is going to read that.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Fine since I cannot talk about the SM codex you can take the Belial 4th ed example off the table. 6th ed codex only.
The reason I used that example is that while points cost vary SM codices have the same general structures and options for many of their units

The new DA codex does have some things in common with other marine codexes, true. There are also a large amount of differences, that make this book very different from what marines have traditionally been able to do.

My point was that each army book has it's own set of rules, and trying to compare unit compositions between codexes is a bit silly.

My example of Belial's rule from the 4th edition codex was an example of a unit that gave upgrades to another unit(exactly what you asked for). Is it really that big of a stretch that GW would do the same thing in the successor to that codex?

If the FAQ said:
*One terminator may be upgraded to the Deathwing Champion, replacing all their weapons with the Halberd of Caliban. This is limited to one per army.

then I would agree with you, and I am pretty sure that is what they intended with the FAQ. However, this is not how it is worded at all.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
There have been 1 per army upgrades since I started playing and there will always be more. This is simply a case of one per army, that is what one X per amy means.

If you could provide examples that actually make sense, instead of coming up with many examples that do not even remotely relate to the topic at hand, that would be great.

Character upgrades for units, Lukas the trickster, he is one per army. Any special character is one per army.

Sanguinary guard with the chapter banner.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It did limit it to one per army, it says one x per army.

Maybe I should have been more specific.

What I was asking for was an actual rules citation that would be comparable, and would work to help your argument.

Listing examples with no rules does nothing to help your argument.


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 liturgies of blood wrote:

It did limit it to one per army, it says one x per army.

Seriously, you really just pick and choose what you read?

Read the entire rewording that I posted. If they said that one terminator coud be upgraded, and then said that it was one per army, that would show that it was one in the squad, and then further state that no other squads could do the same thing.

Yes your rewording is nice but there are many ways to skin a cat and in the british isles One x in the army does not mean any. It means one x in the army, as in one singular in the entire army.

You are also ignoring the context of that sentence.

Basically, you are saying that "one unit in the army" means the same as "only this one unit"

I am not ignoring the context, and I have providing a valid example of the same wording in a previous codex that shows my argument works.

You are ignoring wording, and not providing any actual rules quotes to back it your arguments.

The reason it's worded "in your army" is because you can have one RW command squad per HQ on a bike in your army and you're only allowed to have one champion regardless of the number of command squads.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yes your rewording is nice but there are many ways to skin a cat and in the british isles One x in the army does not mean any. It means one x in the army, as in one singular in the entire army.

You are also ignoring the context of that sentence.

Look man, I hear what you're saying but the fact is that the way that this rule has been written it is absolutely up in the air. I can think of more than a few easy ways they could've clarified it to mean just in the command squad, i.e. they could've written "One Deathwing Terminator in a Command Squad" instead of "in the army" or the suggestion that nolzur gave where they could've just added that you can only purchase that upgrade once instead of giving this vague and open for interpretation rule. All models classified as Deathwing Terminators that I have on my list are a "Deathwing Terminator in my army", therefore one of them should be eligible for the upgrade.

What it comes down to is that you really haven't given a reason why it HAS to be in the command squad the way that the rule is written. You've only given opinion, traditional upgrade rules, and overblown hyperbole. I obviously won't show up at a tournament and call anyone who doesn't believe me a moron, but until this is clarified by GW I feel more than justified to argue my point with any local TOs and players. I would also understand and respect if a TO says that's not how the rule works for his particular tournament, but I'm still not convinced otherwise based on your arguments.

confoo22 wrote:
But couldn't you just as easily interpret it as written that as long as you have one of those types of command squad, one black knight or terminator in the army could be upgraded to a champion?

No, because as has already been stated it would require a leap of logic that the upgrades for one unit can be found in the army list entry of another unit. There is nothing to support that interpretation within the rules.

 Ghaz wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
But couldn't you just as easily interpret it as written that as long as you have one of those types of command squad, one black knight or terminator in the army could be upgraded to a champion?

No, because as has already been stated it would require a leap of logic that the upgrades for one unit can be found in the army list entry of another unit. There is nothing to support that interpretation within the rules.

Nolzur has already presented the fact that Belial used to provide upgrades for any terminator in the army in a previous version of the DA codex. Also, Black Templar Chaplains allow you to gain a unique upgrade for their command squads when they're selected so there are similar rules to what I'm suggesting, it's not such a huge leap as you would make it out to be.

Two editions ago. just saying.


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I don't have to provide rules for why you can't go outside the normal rules framework, you need to show explicitly why you can.
That is how a permissive ruleset works.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Two editions ago. just saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't have to provide rules for why you can't go outside the normal rules framework, you need to show explicitly why you can.
That is how a permissive ruleset works.

You're the one who asked for precedent, and it's not like they've never brought back an old type of rule. Also, I feel that I've already given more than a few concrete arguments that you've simply dismissed without addressing.