initiate's First 1000pt Army List (VC)

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**Havlok**

Ok this is my first attempt ever at an army list, so try not to be too brutal. After coming up with lots of themed armies yesterday, I decided not to use them.
I went a different route. Find what units that embody the looks and fluff I love in said army. Build around those and try to come up with a visual theme.
So here we go, 1000pt Vampire Count army.

Core Units

Skeleton Warriors-- (hand/shield) two units
Musician
Standard Bearer
Screaming Banner

Special

Grave Guard-- one unit of 10
Seneschal
Standard Bearer
Banner of the Barrows

Hex Wraiths-- one unit of 5
Hell Wraith

Spirit Host-- two units of 2

Lords

Master Necromancer
Upgrade to lvl 4

**jonolikespie**

Alright, it isn't the worst 'first' list I have seen by far but you seem to be unaware of some of the basic Meta. Namely big units are necessary.

Very first thing, VCs do not go over their core minimum. At 1k points you are forced to take 250 points of core, that means you take 250, not 260, not 253, not even 251 if it can be avoided. You're best bet here is to merge the units and save the points on the extra command.

Your next problem is hitting power, usually that comes from out lords and heroes but that's hard to do at this points level. Grave Guard are nice but a unit of 10 will die before it ever sees combat and as soon as they are gone you have no hitting power. In the current edition of fantasy units of 10 are for harassment, if you want to hurt your enemy you need at least 21 (7 wide x 3 deep) but ideally in bigger games you want 35-40. Good call on banner of the Burrows though

You have a nice amount of ethereal for this points level but it is all stuck in harassment units. I love spirit hosts but their job is to die in a way that annoys your opponents and most of the time 2 will die just as easily as 1 so your better off with 3 units of 1 and save some points, you get and extra unit (and deployment) out of it and they are all only a little more vulnerable than if they had a second, plus points to spare. Hexwraiths are beautiful if your opponent brings a hydra or abomination but again, harassment unit, don't thing you can use them like cavalry and charge your enemy.

The lvl4 is a nice touch but he has nowhere to go unless you do make the skeletons 1 unit, if he dies your army falls appart and everyone knows it so when building lists it is always very important to know exactly where your necromancers will go. Also since you aren't runny zombies I'd (strongly) suggest putting master of the dead on him. Also as a note for future list building he needs to have his magic lore listed (in this case it has to be vampire though).

**ArchVile**

Core Units

Skeleton Warriors-- (hand/shield) two units of 18 (5pts per model)
Musician .....................10pts
Standard Bearer.........10pts
Screaming Banner.............25pts
TOTAL: 270pts for 18x2

Fuse the two units into one and drop a few skeletons to hit exactly minimum core, remember you can always just summon more in game. IMO you should run a small unit of zombies and spend the rest of the points on ghouls but I don't known what models you have so its up to you.

Special

Grave Guard-- one unit of 10 (11pts + 1 per model with GW)
Seneschal.....................................10pts
Standard Bearer...........................10pts
Banner of the Barrows........................50pts
TOTAL: 190pts for 1x10

Find some points by dropping other units to bump this unit up to at least 20, otherwise its just going to be shot to death, and on a side note the Banner of the Barrows might have a bit high of a price tag for a 1k game to be worth using.

Hex Wraiths-- one unit of 5 (30pts per model)
Hell Wraith.......10pts
TOTAL: 160pts for 1x5

Drop the Hell Wraith, this unit is for harassment more than anything, pretty much any opponent will be tossing a fireball in their direction asap.

Spirit Host-- two units of 2 (45pts per base)
TOTAL: 180pts for 2x2

Drop one unit and split the other in two. Spirit hosts are hilariously effective in single model units, have them go after other harassment units and war machines.

Lords

Master Necromancer (165pts)
Upgrade to lvl 4......35pts
TOTAL: 200pts

This is good but you may want to consider using a vampire or something as well to stick with the skeletons to give them some hitting power, or give the necromancer the ability to raise skeletons. Also you may want to get some zombies to hide him in otherwise he is just going to get sniped.

**jonolikespie**

Good catch on the Hell Wraith, you want to be running THROUGH a unit and getting the 1 auto hit, not getting in combat and using the 2nd attack he gets.

**Havlok**

Ok, First, thank you for your input. It gives me a much better idea of how VC operates on the field.

However, last night, hours after I had posted the first list, I was restless and not comfortable with it. So after re-reading the advice of other posters and thinking about it, I altered the list again.

You will see me doing some things on here that you *just* told me not to do. Its not because I'm not listening to you, its because I altered the list before I realized you had responded. There maybe still things wrong with it, but I feel a little more secure about this list.

Advice like consolidating the two skeleton units, dropping the hellwraith, and buffing up grave guard's numbers sound like a good idea, but tell me if the new list helps that at all.

@ArchVile, feel free to roll your eyes, but I'd like this to be a themed army, and I have an aversion to the zombies/ghouls in the VC army. Just so much visceral grass to be mowed down. I'd perfer if my enemy were trying to mow sticks

New List as follows.

Lords
----------
Master Necromancer
Barded Nightmare
Upgrade to lvl 4
Master of the Dead
Lore of Vampire
Lore of Death

Core Units
--------------
Skeleton Warriors: two units of 21. Three ranks of seven a piece. Hand/Shield
Musician
Champion
Standard Bearer
The Screaming Banner

Special
-----------
Grave Guard: one unit of 10. Two ranks of 5. Hand/Shield
Seneschal
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of Barrows

Hex Wraiths: one unit of 5. single rank
Hell Wraith upgrade

Spirit Host: two units of 1.

**jonolikespie**

1) You seem to think ghouls are in the same boat as zombies. I don't like them because I think that VC core shouldn't do abything but slow the enemy, some people I know love them though because they are our only core that can kill stuff. They have no armour but are T4 and, more importantly, THEY CAN WIN COMBAT. Don't throw them in the same boat as zombies, they will not be mowed down by the score. Having said that I don't like them.

2)You get 1 lore on your wizards. In VC your general HAS to be vampire but if you had other casters they could pick.

3)Do not mount your necromancer unless he is riding with 10+ black knights. If your character is not the same unit type as the rest of the unit he does not get a Look Out Sir and will be easily picked off turn 1 if your opponent has a cannon.

4)Uh.. yea anything else has already been said above.

**Havlok**

jonolikespie wrote:
1) You seem to think ghouls are in the same boat as zombies. I don't like them because I think that VC core shouldn't do abything but slow the enemy, some people I know love them though because they are our only core that can kill stuff. They have no armour but are T4 and, more importantly, THEY CAN WIN COMBAT. Don't throw them in the same boat as zombies, they will not be mowed down by the score. Having said that I don't like them.

Ok, its good to know they can stand on their own against other core. I knew they were stronger than both zombies and skeletons, I just simply don't like them. The advice I was given on building a themed army was to just pick out 1000pts of troops, and try to stay with those that appeal to you. Which is easier than what I *was* doing, which was thinking up themes and then trying to find units that fit the part and I liked. Bottom line, I just don't like them either, but I recognize the usefulness.

2)You get 1 lore on your wizards. In VC your general HAS to be vampire but if you had other casters they could pick.

I see that now. I was not paying attention when reading that part of the army book. So yes, naturally vampire.

3)Do not mount your necromancer unless he is riding with 10+ black knights. If your character is not the same unit type as the rest of the unit he does not get a Look Out Sir and will be easily picked off turn 1 if your opponent has a cannon.

Then I'll have him on foot. I originally put him on a nightmare out a desire to be able to move him quickly away from a fight. But this sets up two more questions I have;
Does the general *have* to be part of a unit? And, how screwed am I when I come across an army with two or more cannons? I know skeletons aren't very durable, so I imagine even a single artillery piece would play hell on the VC.

4)Uh.. yea anything else has already been said above.

Let me ask one more, both you and Archvile suggested that I combine both units of skeleton warriors into one large block. Wouldn't that give me less flexibility on the field? I guess I just don't understand what is baseline normal unit size for core troops.
I know the bulk of VC's core troops are pretty much cannon fodder, but would a unit of Imperial Halberds be around the same size? Or are the skeletons a larger unit because they go down so easy?
If I do this, right now. I would have two blocks of units; one 42 block of skeletons, one 20 block of grave guard, and then a small force of light cavalry, 2 harassing spirit hosts and the necromancer.

**jonolikespie**

The general doesn't HAVE to be part of a unit but if he is not he is easy to shoot to death, you want him surrounded by mooks to take the hits for him.
As for dual cannon lists, laugh at them. Unless you are bringing knights they will kill a max of like 8 models, 8 skeletons is nothing. It is the dual catapults and 1 cannon that will hurt, they kill a lot more rank and file (but knight's armour will laugh at them) and then when you have less than 5 rank and file left they will shoot you with a cannon and you get no look out sir.
Oh, while we are on the topic of warmachines. There is the Ironcurse Icon in the main rulebook under.. enchanted items? Anyway it is 5 points and the character who takes it AND HIS ENTIRE UNIT get a 6+ ward against warmachines.

As for unit sizes, 40 is average for cheap troops. On the offence you go 4 wide and 3 ranks get to attack, on the defense (what you'll be doing with the skeletons) you go 5 wide and prevent all of the opponents 10 guys hitting you (your not wide enough for them to get into base to base) and then you have a whole lot of ranks to help combat resolution. 21 works for grave guard as you can go 3 ranks at 7 wide, that way if you go into something 5 wide you get the 2 extra attacks, I would look at bumping them to 30/35/40 ASAP though if you move up in points.
I know that 2 blocks of troops feels tiny, and it is but the points lever you are playing at isn't too big and the fast cav, spirit hosts are excellent at drawing the enemy away and wasting their time.

**Havlok**

Ok. I think this is finally hammered out.

VAMPIRE COUNT ARMY LIST 1000pt

Lords
----------
Master Necromancer
Upgrade to lvl4
Master of the Dead
Lore of Vampire
Iron Curse Icon
(item)+6 ward against warmachines

Core Units
--------------
Skeleton Warriors: one units of 40. Three ranks of seven a piece. Hand/Shield
Musician
Standard Bearer
Champion

Special
-----------
Grave Guard: one unit of 19. Two ranks of 5. Hand/Shield
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of Barrows

Hex Wraiths: one unit of 5. single rank

Spirit Host: two units of 1.

I am making the assumption that I would want my general to be marching with the Grave Guard, also that a unit must be a perfect block? But now that I say this out loud it sounds like a big assumption. Regardless, that 19 GG can be rounded up to 20 easy.

The Hellwraith was dropped because of what you were saying about not allowing them to get in a prolonged fight, but what if the unit were larger? Or are Hexwraiths never going to hold their own in a standup fight?

I'm also guessing its a good idea to paint up another 40 Skeleton warriors for the purpose of raising. Though I'm thinking of doing them with spears. I like the idea of a more aggressive force than sword and board being summoned on the field suddenly. Least I think the spear is a more aggressive weapon.

At any rate I think this one is good to go, and I'll be back on here sometime in the next day or two, with an empire list.

[EDIT] After posting this, I started thinking. Should I switch those Skeleton weapons around? I mean for that block of 40 using spears instead of shield sword? My understanding of weapons is; spear gives you no shield to actively use, but you can fight as an extra rank. I'm slowly starting to envision how I want this army to work....

**Hargus56**

OK just a heads up please go back edit out the point costs in your lists as it is against the forum policies. I'd try and kill a few points for a zombie bunker to park your Necro in, set it behind the graveguard and skeleton units within 6inches for IoN spell bubble, this will also give you a very large zombie unit if for whatever reason your skeleton or GG get wiped out you can have the necro jump out of the unit and have the zombies charge in tarpitting that unit probably for the rest of the game. I'd kill the champ in the skeleton unit and Iron Curse Icon to make more points after that it is up to you.

**jonolikespie**

You do not want your general in your big combat block because he is a hughe target. Your enemy will thank you for putting him in there before directing all the attacks they can at him. He needs to hide in another unit. Also units don't have to make nice squares, it's just prettier when they do.

As for skeletons, run them 5 wide and don't take spears. going wider than 5 and taking spears is what you do if you want them killing things, but they are skeletons, don't try and force them into a role they are not suited for, let them remains a tarpit.

Hexwraiths will never stand up in a strait fight.

As VC painting extra troops is always a good idea.