Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello people of dakkadakka,

There is a local tournament this February that I'm going to attend. This will be the first tournament I've attended outside of my LGS, I like the game a lot and would like to do well at my first event. I read a fair amount of this forum when I can during the week and have a decent grasp of the rules, read an article or two about strategy, and even watch some battle reports.

I want to play a fast army that I actually have the models for and the new DA book is pretty cool so I build a ravenwing biker army. I'd welcome and C&C or any advice for what I might expect to see at an event with 20-30 people and also if anyone can spot any glaring weaknesses in this army. I feel concerned with the relatively low model count, does anyone have tips for running low model count armies?

Ideally the bikers keep 1 model within the banner and the stealth effect radius at all times giving them good bonuses.


The event does not allow Allies, Fortifications, or Forge World rules.

Here is the list!


HQ

Samael on Jet Bike

Ravenwing Command Squad
Apothecary, Standard Of Devastation, Grenade Launcher

Fast Attack

2 Ravenwing Darkshrouds

Troops

Ravenwing Attack Squadron 1 & 2 (identical squads)
5 Bikers, 1 vet. sgt, 2 plasma gun

Ravenwing Attack Squadron 3 & 4 (identical squads)
5 bikers, 1 vet. sgt, 2 melta gun, 1 combi melta, melta bombs, attack bike with MM


Comes out to 1,499 points.


Updated army list at the bottom of page one so that people can see the direction the army has traveled.

I've been mulling over a similar list to this for a couple days. What worries me most is hell drake spam. Those flamers are rampant in my meta and they just make my awesome bikes crumble. If your meta is lacking on those you'd probably be ok. If you figure out a way to beat them by all means let me know. I've only tested a couple games but its pretty solid. Happy hunting

I'd switch out the standard of devastation for the standard of fortitude. Yes, you lose some killing power, but now your bikes have almost a 50% chance of not dying when hit by a baleflamer.

This is a shameless self bump with responses.

@Ele-Boom I don't think I'm all that worried about baleflamers at this 1500 point level, if they are running the dragon flier I can spread out quite a large amount to minimize how much will be hit and fire all survivors at the back AV of the model. with 6 plasma shots, potentially 8 melta shots, and plenty of bolter shots. I should be able to take it down without devastating losses.

@IndiagoJack I don't think I will switch of standard of devastation for fortitude feels no pain is fantastic. But bikes that move 12" shoot and shoot 4 twin linked shots per model is too much to pass up. The army is already rather low on models so I want to compensate for lack of firepower with the banner.

Looking forward to more C&C. Army is well on its way to being fully put together and painted.

I would drop the vet upgrades on your sergeants - unless you plan on being in alot of assaults, it is a waste (you want to avoid assault with a bike army, hit them on the flanks and make them try to chase you).

Maybe think about dropping some of the plasma guns, and one squad of troop bikes to take a squad of Black Knights. You can put them into a pretty large unit, and they are the cost of a regular biker+plasma gun, and are far better.

The Black Knights are a pretty awesome, hard-hitting unit, and if you toss in a grenade launcher, can ID most things in the game (obviously not large MC).

Paladins giving you a hard time? Rad grenade+plasma=no armor saves, wounding on a 2+, and ID on those pesky 2-wound terminators.

 nolzur wrote:
I would drop the vet upgrades on your sergeants - unless you plan on being in alot of assaults, it is a waste (you want to avoid assault with a bike army, hit them on the flanks and make them try to chase you).

Maybe think about dropping some of the plasma guns, and one squad of troop bikes to take a squad of Black Knights. You can put them into a pretty large unit, and they are the cost of a regular biker+plasma gun, and are far better.

The Black Knights are a pretty awesome, hard-hitting unit, and if you toss in a grenade launcher, can ID most things in the game (obviously not large MC).

Paladins giving you a hard time? Rad grenade+plasma=no armor saves, wounding on a 2+, and ID on those pesky 2-wound terminators.

I like the suggestion to cut the vets, but I worry that if I cut down on scoring models I may have problems. I'm already running very few.

What I would do to fit in the black knights is this. Cut one squad of plasma bikers, cut the vets from every squad, and cut one biker (not sure what squad yet). This would leave me with enough points to buy a unit of black knights with 2 launchers and a power weapon.

I could use that unit with sammael attacked followed by a dark shroud to split off and kill high threat targets. What else should I be targeting with the knights?

This seems like a poor mans white scar army. Ravenwing are the elite biker army. You should only need one darkshroud. You need the FnP banner and black knights are the best unit in the entire codex. To not take them in a Ravenwing army beggars belief. A unit or preferably 2 also covers the loss of horde control through dropping Salvo. Remember powermaul on sarge!

I agree somewhat with Flingitnow. You do only need one Dark Shroud and I would advocate taking one unit of Black Knights for the sheer hitting power they have, but I disagree on the FnP standard over the Devastation. Remember, a really good way to keep your guys alive is to totally destroy whatever is a major threat in the opposing army. The Standard of Devastation helps that!

Not against Helldrakes it doesn't and with black knights you can easily wipeout threats. That FnP is vital for a low model count army like RW or DW.

@ FlingItNow While I completely disagree that Ravenwing is a poor mans white scars army and the FnP banner is necessary I'm getting a lot of people pushing for black knights. So I plan on including them.

@Ozymandias I'm running 2 for redundancy and the ability to split my army and still maintain the stealth on my bikes. Is this really a waste of points?

It's sounding like the black knights are in as a 6-8 man unit with 2 launchers. A unit of troops is out and a dark shroud may be on its way to the bench.

What I meant by the white scars comparison is if you want lots of bikes they are the better army. If you want the best bikes then RW is the choice.

You can't in general afford to split your army you need to mass on a flank and obliterate it.

FnP is a necessity in such a low model count army particularly with how bad baleflamers bone you if you don't have it.

Eh, I'd still take the Devastation banner over the FnP banner, but try it both ways. And Flingitnow is correct, this army works because you can use your speed to completely overwhelm one part of your opponent's force with your entire army and then have the speed to then go after the other portion of his force. Splitting up is a great way to get shot to pieces, you want to stay together, within the protection of the Dark Shroud and within the range of whatever banner you go with.

As for baleflamers, yes they are a huge threat, but I think you were on to something with your original tactic. Get behind them and then unload. With 24 twinlinked shots per squad you are looking at 7 hits so a little over 1 glance per squad, maybe even two if you roll well. So it will take a turn of dedicated fire, but you should be able to bring it down. I don't think you'd see two in 1500 points but then the tactic is to get in combat as fast as possible and stay there for as long as possible.

I just went to a 1250 tournament and had 3 helldrakes in my army and 2 baleflamers. Don't forget the S7 vector strikes too as they also ignore cover.

 FlingitNow wrote:
What I meant by the white scars comparison is if you want lots of bikes they are the better army. If you want the best bikes then RW is the choice.

C:SM bikes are 2 points cheaper than RW bikes and are not as good, how is this better?
Sure, vanilla can take 2 more bikes per squad, but they don't have hard-hitting elite bikes like we do in our Black Knights.

Please tell me how a RW is the "poor man's" version of a blip in the vanilla codex.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I just went to a 1250 tournament and had 3 helldrakes in my army and 2 baleflamers. Don't forget the S7 vector strikes too as they also ignore cover.

I'd love to play against that army, so many points spent on non-scoring, non-contesting flyers!

Also, what's the AP on the vector strikes, I thought it was AP4 but maybe I'm mistaken.

Nolzur did you even read my post? I agree with your points that RW has better bikers but vanilla has cheaper bikers in bigger squads. My point was he was using very little of what makes Ravenwing better than vanilla bikes i.e. Cheap typhoons, FnP, black knights, no wasted points on cc upgrades on basic units etc

Vector strikes are AP3. I wasn't talking about what is a good army but to claim you won't see more than 1 helldrake at 1500 is miles off.

First I would like to say that I love feel of bike armies. So kuddos to you mate! Second, I must say that I agree with putting in the 6man Black Knight unit They are by far the best unit in the new codex...should get no agruement out of that statement
Take Sammual, Command Squad, Black Knights, and Darkshroud around the board together! Probably one of the best Deathstar units out right now! Agruably, one of the most surviable at that too
Turboboost everything on turn one if you are not within range of rapid fire (12"....Jink is now a 3+ I believe due to skilled rider. What do the rest of you guys think?

Jink is 2+ with turboboost due to Darkshroud.

From wrote:

The event does not allow Allies, Fortifications, or Forge World rules.

No forge World OK but no Allies or Fortifications? How are armies without flyers or skyfire expected to compete? Tau and Eldar off the top of my head. Now if they went ahead and said no flyers then everyone would be on a relative even playing field.

I know its not really the most competitive choice but I have had some decent luck with the overpriced nephilim jet fighter if your really worried about enemy flyers. Its actually better in this situation as your opponent wont have a fortification to shoot you down with right off the bat.

Thats disappointing there is no forgeworld allowed.

My contemptor rocks flyers faces!

The Command Squad isn't all that great at 3 bikes and you're only bringing Sammael to potentially bulk out the unit. I've found Command squads to be great if you're bringing more characters to add to the unit, but for the points, you only end up putting a bigger target on their head early game. If that's what you're going for then go for it.

The Black Knights are a great alternative as you can probably find more points to bulk out the squad with more bikes, and Sammael added to the squad gives it that much more umph. If you switch to this squad, I'd try to find points to add in a Chaplain as well. I know this is tight at 1.5k, but it's do-able.

Im struggling with my RW to not take the Vt. Sgts. The Reason? They aren't Fearless anymore and the extra LD makes a significant difference. You're going to be taking checks to see if you fall back now and usually from 2 casualties, which aren't that hard to get. A 3D6" Fall back move can put the unit out of the game quite easily. Try to get some games in with and without them and see how it goes.

I like the 2 Darkshrouds. They grant each other a 2+ Jink save w/o having to turbo-boost, and make it that much more difficult to remove the cover save from the rest of your army. 1 Darkshroud gets targeted first, goes down quite easily, and then you immediately lose the benefit for the rest of the army.

Im not a fan of the 2 Ass. weapons per unit since I've rarely found a reason to take more than 1. It's more of a personal preference. Also I feel the 2nd 'Melta' squad is probably a waste of points. You really only need that much melta for AV14 stuff (Monoliths/LRaiders), which at 1.5k points aren't going to be too common. The Plasma's and Assault Cannons (if you have em on the Darkshrouds), are pretty good at taking down everything else. The mobility to assault vehicles that you don't crack and get on the rear armor or to just get around are pretty effective on their own. It's a personal preference, so play it how you feel best.

*****
Bummer on the no Allies/Fortifications. An AGL on it's own is a great way to add more obstacles between you and your opponent. Since it's a LGS, the no FW is a great thing, so you won't have any surprises. Only warning is that It's been my experience that Tourneys that dis-allow Allies/Forts will often have scenarios or rules that also carry over from earlier editions of the game.

Akar sorry in what world is a chaplain a good spend on points when a Libby is cheaper and far far more effective at the same job. Roll to hit in cc for first round for 90pts vs reroll to hit with shooting, overwatch and assault every turn for 65pts not exactly a tough choice. Likewise going down to one special weapon is madness as is dropping melta.

OP here with more responses and an updated army list below.


@Psychohavoc: I agree with you here! I've emailed the TO about a few things and brought up my concern about some armies being put behind without access to fliers or ways to deal with them, what I was told by him was 'Every army has a way to deal with fliers. Just have to get creative.' I didn't feel like arguing that, while all armies have 'ways' to deal with them without allies or fortifications, they're extremely inefficient.

@Malik_Raynor: Thanks man! Extreme motocross in the grim dark future is exploding with style! I've done some work with my points and have a 8 man black knight unit, that should pack plenty of hurt. Sammael will likely be jumping between the command squad and the black knights depending on the situation. I think the rapid fire range for plasma talons is 9" though.

@Akar: The command squad does have a big target pasted on its head and if I had the extra points I would get a biker lib for the squad. It's 1,500 points and I'm already cutting it close to the limit a third HQ unit would be too hard on the points and army overall. Also I think you've misread the dark shrouds ability, even if there are 2 shrouds within 6" it doesn't confer the stealth to either of them, check the wording. I will take into consideration changing the second melta to a plasma squad... But as it's a 'no allies no fortifications' event I expect some one to bring Nids, I don't want to have any problems with MCs.

@Icelord: I'm not too scared of fliers outside of the dragons baleflamer.

Here's an updated list.

HQ

Sammael 200

command squad 185
banner of devastation, genade launcher

Fast attack

Dark shroud 80

Ravenwing black knights 336
8 Knights, 2 Grenade launchers

Troops

Ravenwing Attack Squadron 191
5 Bikers, 1 sgt, 2 plasma

Ravenwing Attack Squadron 251
5 Bikers, 1 sgt, 2 melta, combi melta, melta bombs, MM attack bike

Ravenwing Attack Squadron 251
5 Bikers, 1 sgt, 2 melta, combi melta, melta bombs, MM attack bike

This leaves me with 5 points.. Melta bombs on the plasma squad I guess?

Does a techmarine on a bike with a power field generator add efficient protection versus Baleflamers? You should be able to get a bubble that envelops 7 bikes (including the techmarine) without bunching them at all. More so if you bring them close to him.

I would drop the melta bombs to get a power maul on the black knight sergeant. It just means you can assault an ork mob and expect not to take a casualty as you now ID his powerclaw nob!

@whoadirty: At higher point values I would actually change out the ravenwing command squad for a normal one take a tech marine with a power field, servo harness, and stuff the whole group into a LRC. It would make for a bit of mobile cover with a 3" invuln bubble around the tank the bikes could hug... But as it is, I'm strapped for points. So no tech marine.

@Flingitnow: Dropping all of the melta bombs for a power maul seems interesting. But I don't think I'd be charging into CC with an ork mob before thinning them out enough to know I would win the assault.

The black knights with a power maul should wipe a 30 man ork mob on the charge taking about 1 casualty in return if you have the power maul. Remember black knights are the best horde control for the RW.