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So I was reading through the topic about cheese and then I made this list and looked at it and felt ashamed, but here it is:

GK Grand Master Mastery 2 W/ FS & Grenades - 230
Librarian Mastery 3 W/ Divination & FS - 200
6 Crusaders & 6 Death Cult Assassins - 180
Land Raider Crusader w/ Psybolt & Multimelta - 270


Coteaz
3 Plasma Cannon Servitors, 3 Plasma Gun Acolytes, 2 Jokaero, 2 Storm Bolter Acolytes & 1 Las Pistol Acolite - 220


Librarian Mastery 2 W/ Shouding, Sactuary, Might of Titan and Warding Stave - 200


Tech-marine Warding Stave, All Grenades - 145
4 Crusades & 3 Death Cult Assassins - 105
Land Raider w/ Psybolt & Storm Bolter - 270



8 Psykers - 80



Essentially The Grand Master and Librarian with Divination go in the crusader with the larger squad of crusaders/assassins, the Tech-marine and smaller squad in the other one. Coteaz with the plasma Squad in bolstered ruins rolling prescience + one more divination roll, the psykers are there as well with the Librarian supplying the shrouding the land raider and Coteaz' squad near by (ready to jump out and assault or ready for the Librarian to embark and come with). Hopefully the Divination Librarian gets the 4++ to pass onto the Land Raider and then the squad when it plans to assault. The Grand master can have the crusader outflank or scout and if it looks like it might be a better idea I'll move the smaller land raider up the field if objectives are an issue, or turn them into scoring units and place all the objectives right next to them.

Sorry dude but you have four HQ's. The maximum number you can have is two in any non apocalypse game.

psychosheep22 wrote:
Sorry dude but you have four HQ's. The maximum number you can have is two in any non apocalypse game.

Uh, 6th edition? That's the difference between 1999 and 2k battles.

I guess I'm not really seeing the cheese here. Last I checked, the cries of cheese were at spammy lists, something along the lines of 4 rune priests and 15 missile launchers, or psycannon/psyfleman spam, Necron Airforce, and potentially the latest Ravenwing lists.

This, on the other hand, is 3 200+ HQs and 2 land raiders. The shooty henchmen and the psykers don't even have any way to keep up with the mobility of the LRC's.

 AreTwo wrote:
I guess I'm not really seeing the cheese here. Last I checked, the cries of cheese were at spammy lists, something along the lines of 4 rune priests and 15 missile launchers, or psycannon/psyfleman spam, Necron Airforce, and potentially the latest Ravenwing lists.

This, on the other hand, is 3 200+ HQs and 2 land raiders. The shooty henchmen and the psykers don't even have any way to keep up with the mobility of the LRC's.

The idea here is to be an immovable object with the henchmen. I hear the talk about Psycannon spamming, but with the faq update they got toned down as they are no longer ap2 on the rend against vehicles and I've never been comfortable as that as a generic list as it seems like it would get destroyed by a standard IG player or DE player with its limited range. Few people bring enough in a 2k list to deal with two land raiders and whatever they brought will die en mass to the psychotroke grenades or can be easily targeted and eliminated with the long range fire power that list brings to bear. I have found that securing first blood (Psykers, Land Raider and Coteaz' squad) is generally enough to win most battles so long as you root yourself in place and prevent line-breaker. The emphasis on cheese here is the grenades and storm shields. I have taken those squads against everything not in terminator armor and destroyed them and I have plenty of plasma to destroy a half terminator squad per turn which is generally all you see in 2k battles.

Any objective I receive will be placed around Coteaz and if I have more than one they will be out in the open in easy access and easy to fire upon.

But this is just my opinion of what Cheese exists in the GK codex. Psychotroke & Rad grenades can level the playing field against every CC unit and makes non CC units look like children playing tag. Flamers are a pain, but a 3++ is good enough to get you into CC against them and coteaz keeps them away for a turn.

I'll admit if someone knew I was bringing this list it might not hold up, but honestly in a standard 2k battle with the well-rounded lists you tend to see I don't see how this list would fail unless I yielded first blood or got completely swarmed by the ork truk mob. Also that 15 missile launcher list sounds like it could be a pain I'd love to play against that.

I don't really consider this a tournament list, just one I know would piss off a lot of people to have to play against if they weren't prepared for it at your LGS and what I think epitomizes the cheese of the GK codex (Invalidating other people's special rules and stat lines), which was the point of the topic this list was created around, but I didn't want to post it in the topic as it didn't belong so I posted it here.

If you have an opinion of how to cheese this up, I'd gladly hear it as that is the point of this list.

you want 2K MAXIMUM CHEEZE!!


Coteaz

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt


Storm Raven: MM, AC

Storm Raven: MM, AC

Storm Raven: MM, AC


Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt


1999 Points on the nose.


That is Stinky GK Cheese.

It is simply a list that no one wants to see or play.

Not because it will always win, but because it is an unoriginal list full of spammed units that the internet says is good. That is what cheese is.

=======

Any list with Land Raiders in it is never going to be considered cheesy. Land raiders die very fast in 6th edition. Melta and Lance still kills them with the damage table. Haywire and Gauss kills them with hull points.

Yes, henchmen assault units are very powerful in close combat for their points, but if the enemy can take out your LR's, they can be killed with shooting.

You are going for the most common GK trap, which is going all in for the upgrades and buffs instead of taking more stuff.. Your 2k list only consists of 4 units and 2 Land raiders. You have a lot of buffs and synergy, but you simply do not have enough on the table for a 2k list.

If by cheesy, you meant stinky? Then yes, it is incredibly cheesy. This list is awful and not in a I-fear-this-list sort of way. Three weak troops choices that are majority T3 in 2 LR's doesn't scare anyone. Play against 'Crons, watch storm-teks kill your LRs and Scythes pepper you from above. Played against a Heldrake before? Random vectors arent kind to those squads and neither are torrent flamer templates that can be placed in a manner to snipe out your weaker spots (not that a 3+ is infallible to begin with). You may beat some people with this list, but it lacks any balance and it isn't even that durable aside from it's two LRs. Dark Angels do this whole LR spam thing far better.

 svendrex wrote:
you want 2K MAXIMUM CHEEZE!!


Coteaz

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt


Storm Raven: MM, AC

Storm Raven: MM, AC

Storm Raven: MM, AC


Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt


1999 Points on the nose.


That is Stinky GK Cheese.

It is simply a list that no one wants to see or play.

Not because it will always win, but because it is an unoriginal list full of spammed units that the internet says is good. That is what cheese is.

=======

Any list with Land Raiders in it is never going to be considered cheesy. Land raiders die very fast in 6th edition. Melta and Lance still kills them with the damage table. Haywire and Gauss kills them with hull points.

Yes, henchmen assault units are very powerful in close combat for their points, but if the enemy can take out your LR's, they can be killed with shooting.

You are going for the most common GK trap, which is going all in for the upgrades and buffs instead of taking more stuff.. Your 2k list only consists of 4 units and 2 Land raiders. You have a lot of buffs and synergy, but you simply do not have enough on the table for a 2k list.

I don't necessarily consider fewer units a trap. I've brought 2,500 point lists that consisted of 4 units total and done very well against Ork and Tyranid Players and squadrons of heavy bolters and auto cannons. I'm more for resiliency than spamming, but I agree your lists would probably win because of the Storm Ravens and would be considered more cheesey just because 6th edition made Spamming fliers cheese for most armies that have them, but if you roll Purge the Alien for the mission you might be screwed. Land Raiders die quickly when you rush them up the field, but a Land raider with a 2+ or 3+ cover save and Psybolt ammo is a cheese of its own. I hear you on the IF, my goal is to make that IF they destroy my land raiders a very hard IF. Helldrakes are a pain, but not till turn 2+ and by then Coteaz' squad has generally done its job, but they can't do anything against land raiders and then generally get shot down after they fly over since their rear armor is exposed.

I think I have to disagree with your premise of cheese: I don't really care what the internet says on most days, my definition of cheese is one that invalidates 90% (not is) of all contemporary strategies. A lot of people go that route when making lists and as you said and aren't original at all and most people make lists for tournaments along those lines of whatever the internet says is best and field the most of it they can; but I don't consider that cheese. I consider things like Kharn being able to re-roll his 2+ to hit in CC with his ap2 initiative order weapon Cheese; having a single model that can take on whole squads by himself and then sticking him in a squad of super-charged murders cheese (sticking a generic sorcerer in a squad of Berzerkers or a tech marine and librarian in a squad of death cult assassins), letting a squad shoot three twin linked plasma guns and cannons and two las cannons an extra 12" and then ignoring cover, that's cheese.

Maybe not the best list ever written, but the goal is to capture the essence of GK cheese in a silly list. Maybe I should put this in the silly list topic so people don't try to take it seriously as a competative list.

Ah, I see what the issue is.


Everyone has their own definition for cheese. What you call Cheese, I would call an "All In" style list.

You are going "All In" on your land raiders surviving and wrecking havoc. If they do, you win. If they don't you loose.
Stacking a bunch of buffs onto a single shooting squad with limited durability and mobility is also an "All in" of a different sort.

====

the list I presented above what not a suggestion of something that you should run instead, but rather to show you that you should not be "ashamed" of your All In GK list. It is not "cheesy" and I think that most people here would not agree with your idea of what "cheese" is.


It looks like fun to play, but I think it is not "optimized" for an Assault based GK Henchmen list.



[I will post a similar list here, that is probably more "optimized" when i get home from work. Maybe 30 minutes or so.
It is simply as a counterpoint to your list. It is my take on the same idea.]

The list:

Unit #1
Coteaz
Henchmen: 3x Acolytes with Plasmaguns, 5x Daemon Hosts.
Chimera: ML and HB

Unit #2
Malleus Inquisitor: Hellrifle, Psyker (divination)
Henchmen: 3x Servitors with Plasma Cannons, 7x Acolytes with Bolters

Unit #3
Inquisitor Xeno: Rad Grenades, Psyker (divination)
Henchmen: 5x Crusaders, 5x DCA
Land Raider Redeemer: MM

Unit #4
Inquisitor Xeno: Rad Grenades, Psyker (divination)
Henchmen: 5x Crusaders, 5x DCA
Land Raider Redeemer: MM

Unit #5
Techmarine: Rad Grenades, Blind Grenades
Henchmen: 5x Crusaders, 5x DCA
Land Raider Redeemer: MM

Unit #6
Henchmen: 8x Psykers, 1x Acolyte
Rhino: Searchlight.

2k on the nose.



First off, this list has 3 land raiders to your 2. 2 LR's with stealth is powerful, however, it means they need to stay within 6" of each other. 3 Land Raiders is more target saturation and you are no longer required to keep then near each other for durability. Each one can go after whatever target it wants. Sometimes you get better durability with more units.

I chose redeemers as it seems like this list wants the LR's to move as fast as possible. With the most powerful, but shortest range guns, the redeemer seems like the correct choice over the Crusader. Also they are quite a bit cheaper without psybolt ammo as well, though you do loose a bit of shooting power.

You do not need a Mastery 2 Grand Master and a Mastery 3 Librarian to make DCA really good in the assault phase. All you need is a Diviation Re-roll and Rad Grenades. With those 2 buffs, your 240 pt unit can take on 300-400 pt units and win. If you need more assault power than that, you double up and assault with 2 or 3 squads at once (but when would you ever need that much assault power?)

Your supporting units are divided up and made a bit more efficient. Coteaz and the Plasma Guns get a Chimera so he can get into the middle of the board to hold an objective, and use their reasonable assault power to keep the enemy off of it, while the DCA create Havoc. The Hellrifle Inquisitor can sit in the back field and shoot away with the cheap PC servitors. You now can hold an objective in the middle and on your side, while the DCA take any objective in the enemy DZ.

The Jokaero are dropped simply for points, as they are a bit on the expensive side for BS 3 lascannons, and their upgrade table is not useful to PC servitors in a bolstered ruin. You have a 3+ cover save so the armor or INV upgrades are not needed. You have a 36" so you do not need more to be effective. Rending is not useful on a gun that already is AP2, Sure it helps the bolters in the unit, but you would rather not have to use those bolters if you do not have to.

Lastly, your psyker unit has much better composition now. You get an Acolyte for Perils protection. You get a rhino for mobility and protection from small arms. Also another vehicle on the board adds more target saturation for your Land Raiders as well.


====

I also, like to go against the grain a bit when it comes to my lists and units.

I regularly run Daemonhosts when most of the internet thinks they are not very good..
I run Dread Knights with heavy Psycannons instead of Incinerators
I run DCA/Crusader units even though "Assault is dead" in 6th edition.
I try not to run more than 2 exact copies of any unit in my list.

If you want to see what my lists usually look like, you can check out the article in my signature. "Part 2" and then go to the 2500 point list.

 svendrex wrote:
Ah, I see what the issue is.


Everyone has their own definition for cheese. What you call Cheese, I would call an "All In" style list.

You are going "All In" on your land raiders surviving and wrecking havoc. If they do, you win. If they don't you loose.
Stacking a bunch of buffs onto a single shooting squad with limited durability and mobility is also an "All in" of a different sort.

====

the list I presented above what not a suggestion of something that you should run instead, but rather to show you that you should not be "ashamed" of your All In GK list.

It really is not cheesy. It looks like fun to play, but I think it is not "optimized" for an Assault based GK Henchmen list.



[I will post a similar list here, that is probably more optimized, when i get home from work. Maybe 30 minutes or so]


====

I also, like to go against the grain a bit when it comes to my lists and units.

I regularly run Daemonhosts when most of the internet thinks they are not very good..
I run Dread Knights with heavy Psycannons instead of Incinerators
I run DCA/Crusader units even though "Assault is dead" in 6th edition.
I try not to run more than 2 exact copies of any unit in my list.

If you want to see what my lists usually look like, you can check out the article in my signature. "Part 2" and then go to the 2500 point list.

I don't so much consider it against the grain so much as exploring the full potential of a codex. I've seen a lot of generic, evenly spaced out, lists that are very well rounded and I suppose as far as the tactical aspect of the game there is something to be said for it... but I am one of those people who have read the art of war over 100 times (not a joke) and the very idea of fielding something that is expected or has been seen 100 times before fills me with a sense of dread but also a sense of security that people are expecting it and I have the models and done it once or twice at the LGS so they have to consider that I might do it again. Ideally I aim to become a player that it is impossible to tailor a list against as I have no set playing style; to that end I explore every tactic to its maximum both in practice and in theory, here on Dakka its all theory.

I definitely agree with you that people have different meanings for the terminology on this forum. What you call "All in" I call exploring the field of combined energy. I'd consider an All In list like two squads of Paladins and Driago and that's it. I definitely stack my effectiveness of units on a regular basis, not to the degree in this list every time; but that's probably a large part of having 10k of models to pick from (and I still feel like I am just getting started and have hundreds of combos yet to unlock); I haven't fielded the same list twice in over six months now, I've had to break apart and re-kit over 40 models readjusting for CC in 6th edition because I refuse to yield any ground, but in doing so I have found a couple golden combinations that dishearten opponents when they have to watch their much more expensive units get slaughtered by them or dump an entire shooting phase into maybe killing 1 model and I label those combos as cheesy as they don't so much depend on tactics but in taking advantage of special rules. That's why I'm ashamed that this list came out of my mind and very easily as it is all stacking special rules designed to dishearten opponents not win by tactical ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 svendrex wrote:

You do not need a Mastery 2 Grand Master and a Mastery 3 Librarian to make DCA really good in the assault phase. All you need is a Diviation Re-roll and Rad Grenades. With those 2 buffs, your 240 pt unit can take on 300-400 pt units and win. If you need more assault power than that, you double up and assault with 2 or 3 squads at once (but when would you ever need that much assault power?)

Ah, and now we get to the meat of it. The idea is to create a list full of units that are capable of taking on/out 2-4x their value and come out on top for seconds. Mastery 3 Psyker with (Quicksilver, Might of Titan and Sanctuary/The Shrouding or Divination with Prescience, 4++ and Instant Death) to death-cult assassins plus his 3++ in CC (Nemesis force sword + Foreboding) with the stack is needed to stack with hammer-hand and the rad grenades from the Grand Master who still has a mastery level left for instant death. 30 death company? No problem. 30 boys with a nob and big mek and a squad of Kill Cans assaulting you at the same time? no problem. Full squad of Berzerkers or Chosen with mark of khorne, icon of wrath and generic sorcerer? No Problem. All of those won't even get a swing off before being wiped out with that combo.

 Sorginak wrote:

Ah, and now we get to the meat of it. The idea is to create a list full of units that are capable of taking on/out 2-4x their value and come out on top for seconds. Mastery 3 Psyker with (Quicksilver, Might of Titan and Sanctuary/The Shrouding or Divination with Prescience, 4++ and Instant Death) to death-cult assassins plus his 3++ in CC (Nemesis force sword + Foreboding) with the stack is needed to stack with hammer-hand and the rad grenades from the Grand Master who still has a mastery level left for instant death. 30 death company? No problem. 30 boys with a nob and big mek and a squad of Kill Cans assaulting you at the same time? no problem. Full squad of Berzerkers or Chosen with mark of khorne, icon of wrath and generic sorcerer? No Problem. All of those won't even get a swing off before being wiped out with that combo.

Here is the issue that I see. In most games where i run a DCA unit, I am only able to get one or 2 good assaults out of it. Not that it dies after thatt, but there are not enough targets close to each other for that to work. How often do people run 30 man Death Company units in your area? How often do people put their entire army close enough together for a single multiple assault to take them out?

Here is what usually happens with my DCA units. Their first assault would be against a Tactical squad. They take some fire and loose some dudes. Then their second assault is against another tactical squad. Even after loosing some dudes, they come out on top. That is all that they have Time to do in a game. In that scenario my ~250 pt unit took out around 400 pts, which is a great trade for me. I think that your squads, even though they are far more powerful in combat will have difficulty finding the TIME in a game to take out more than the ~400 points that a smaller DCA unit took out.

By increasing the cost and combat power of the DCA unit, you are not really increasing the reward you get from them. A smaller, more cost efficient DCA unit will murder any MEQ unit you put in front of it, just like the super squad you have. A smaller DCA unit can still take on most TEQ units of a similar or slighty greater price. Your squad CAN kill bigger and scarier units, but will it ever need too often enough for the increased cost to be effective?


One of the main principals from the art or war would be knowing your enemy. In 40k you are not able to know the exact list in advance, but you do have a general sense of the metagame. The current Metagame has moved away from pure assault units in general. You cannot tailor your list to the exact list your opponent will be bringing, but you can tailor it to be effective against the most common things you see. In that case, you will more commonly see a list running lots of 10 man shooty MEQ units than a list running 1 super expensive deathstar for your deathstar to murder.



To Sum up:

It is far more cost effective for DCA units to be kept reasonably cheap, so they are able to make back 2-4 times their points by taking on the other reasonably cheap units you will usually see on the table.

In combat, there is a limit to the amount of assault power you need. Adding more assault power to a unit does not necessarily make a unit more effective. It gives that unit a wider range of targets it CAN assault and win, but it if those targets are not often on the board, then the extra cost may not be worth while.

 svendrex wrote:
you want 2K MAXIMUM CHEEZE!!


Coteaz

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt

Henchmen: 3 Acolytes
Razorback: HB- Psybolt


Storm Raven: MM, AC

Storm Raven: MM, AC

Storm Raven: MM, AC


Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt

Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt


1999 Points on the nose.


That is Stinky GK Cheese.

It is simply a list that no one wants to see or play.

Not because it will always win, but because it is an unoriginal list full of spammed units that the internet says is good. That is what cheese is.

=======

Any list with Land Raiders in it is never going to be considered cheesy. Land raiders die very fast in 6th edition. Melta and Lance still kills them with the damage table. Haywire and Gauss kills them with hull points.

Yes, henchmen assault units are very powerful in close combat for their points, but if the enemy can take out your LR's, they can be killed with shooting.

You are going for the most common GK trap, which is going all in for the upgrades and buffs instead of taking more stuff.. Your 2k list only consists of 4 units and 2 Land raiders. You have a lot of buffs and synergy, but you simply do not have enough on the table for a 2k list.

svendrex, you are one of the top advisors on GKs and I often find myself not needing to comment on posts because you've already taken the time to give people a very well broken down analysis. But this list as one fatal flaw. You didn't use your last point for a search light!!! ha

 svendrex wrote:

 Sorginak wrote:

Ah, and now we get to the meat of it. The idea is to create a list full of units that are capable of taking on/out 2-4x their value and come out on top for seconds. Mastery 3 Psyker with (Quicksilver, Might of Titan and Sanctuary/The Shrouding or Divination with Prescience, 4++ and Instant Death) to death-cult assassins plus his 3++ in CC (Nemesis force sword + Foreboding) with the stack is needed to stack with hammer-hand and the rad grenades from the Grand Master who still has a mastery level left for instant death. 30 death company? No problem. 30 boys with a nob and big mek and a squad of Kill Cans assaulting you at the same time? no problem. Full squad of Berzerkers or Chosen with mark of khorne, icon of wrath and generic sorcerer? No Problem. All of those won't even get a swing off before being wiped out with that combo.

Here is the issue that I see. In most games where i run a DCA unit, I am only able to get one or 2 good assaults out of it. Not that it dies after thatt, but there are not enough targets close to each other for that to work. How often do people run 30 man Death Company units in your area? How often do people put their entire army close enough together for a single multiple assault to take them out?

Here is what usually happens with my DCA units. Their first assault would be against a Tactical squad. They take some fire and loose some dudes. Then their second assault is against another tactical squad. Even after loosing some dudes, they come out on top. That is all that they have Time to do in a game. In that scenario my ~250 pt unit took out around 400 pts, which is a great trade for me. I think that your squads, even though they are far more powerful in combat will have difficulty finding the TIME in a game to take out more than the ~400 points that a smaller DCA unit took out.

By increasing the cost and combat power of the DCA unit, you are not really increasing the reward you get from them. A smaller, more cost efficient DCA unit will murder any MEQ unit you put in front of it, just like the super squad you have. A smaller DCA unit can still take on most TEQ units of a similar or slighty greater price. Your squad CAN kill bigger and scarier units, but will it ever need too often enough for the increased cost to be effective?


One of the main principals from the art or war would be knowing your enemy. In 40k you are not able to know the exact list in advance, but you do have a general sense of the metagame. The current Metagame has moved away from pure assault units in general. You cannot tailor your list to the exact list your opponent will be bringing, but you can tailor it to be effective against the most common things you see. In that case, you will more commonly see a list running lots of 10 man shooty MEQ units than a list running 1 super expensive deathstar for your deathstar to murder.



To Sum up:

It is far more cost effective for DCA units to be kept reasonably cheap, so they are able to make back 2-4 times their points by taking on the other reasonably cheap units you will usually see on the table.

In combat, there is a limit to the amount of assault power you need. Adding more assault power to a unit does not necessarily make a unit more effective. It gives that unit a wider range of targets it CAN assault and win, but it if those targets are not often on the board, then the extra cost may not be worth while.

I thank you for your advice, but this wasn't meant to be a competitive list I was planning on using, but a theoretical to see how much power stacking I can fit in a single list, the fact that you agree with me that those units are unnecessarily powerful means I succeeded; but, I do have a friend who has over 100 death company and another friend who has over 200 orks, I have brought those squads against both them and Necron foot armies and mopped up, and I would probably bring those squads against Nids as well.

One of the main reasons I don't make generic lists is I have no intention of going to tournaments. To me, the idea of battling unknown opponents with the same army over and over again is more akin to last stand mode in Dawn of War than a comprehensive tactical game I want to play (though I do play Dawn of War from time to time). Playing like that can be a fun venture into entry-level tactics, but I played Chess competitively for years and already got my fill of that, I fill that gap now by occasionally playing Twilight Imperium, Civ 5 and Tanhauser when I feel like a completely balanced tactical experience.

Knowing your opponent is a huge part of of the art of war, second only to deception, and I generally roll around with 7k-9k of models with me so when I pick up a game no one can tailor a list against me or the army they think I will bring, likewise my friends have similar amount of points and every time we battle it is always different as I can't play their army as they have more than one each and allied detachments tripled the possible combos. I can't play metagame as they only sometimes bring balanced lists and like me they will never bring what I expect them to bring (a lot of times I don't see some of my friend's models for the first time till I meet them on the battle field as they bought them, put them together and painted them in secret only to unleash them in full power with a strategy I haven't seen yet) so I will generally bring a list that is more thematic and adheres to fluff than a army completely tailored to destroy my opponent with the true tactics of the game trying to guess what my opponent's strategy will be before the first model has been deployed and frustrating their plans regardless. Aside from small practice games (less than 2.5k) at my LGS, I only really care to play Apoc, escalation scenarios and campaigns that my group is constantly working on and re-working, now that I have enough models I have also been considering DMing the 40k RPG.

But anyway thanks for your input, you might have sold me on acquiring another land raider as three in a single list does sound like something I'd like to try out. They definitely won't expect that gak.

 Sorginak wrote:

Essentially The Grand Master and Librarian with Divination go in the crusader with the larger squad of crusaders/assassins, the Tech-marine and smaller squad in the other one. Coteaz with the plasma Squad in bolstered ruins rolling prescience + one more divination roll, the psykers are there as well with the Librarian supplying the shrouding the land raider and Coteaz' squad near by (ready to jump out and assault or ready for the Librarian to embark and come with). Hopefully the Divination Librarian gets the 4++ to pass onto the Land Raider and then the squad when it plans to assault. The Grand master can have the crusader outflank or scout and if it looks like it might be a better idea I'll move the smaller land raider up the field if objectives are an issue, or turn them into scoring units and place all the objectives right next to them.

I believe your strategy is built on the false premise that Land Raiders are dedicated transports in the GK codex. They are not. This means your grand strategy abilities that grant scout do not work with them. In fact, you can't even use the special rule on the henchmen or independent characters, so I don't understand why the grand master is even there.

Knowing your opponent is a huge part of of the art of war,

So is knowing the rules, ya know?

This army is not only not cheesey in the WAAC sense, it's not even slightly competitive. Frankly, it's not a "good" list at all and I would categorize it as the "Big Shiny HQ" trap that new players frequently fall into when they begin to play 40k.

This list is pretty static, aside from the first turn move you will likely get from coteaz your land raider's will be blocked by any mobile or sacrifical move. Remember movment happens before shooting land raider and cock-blocking is an easy tactic for most armies that can sacrifice a unit or two. In an army with this few units, it's a certainty that your opponent can afford to sacrifice units to keep your land raider from delivering its payload where it needs to go.

Coteaz & his henchmen is an "immovable object" unit? Maybe to conventional shooting, but that unit is going to be destroyed by any unit with flamers. Heldrakes are going to love the hubris of that line of thinking. Bikes with flamers, hell any mobile unit with template weapons...

This army is top heavy in HQ choices in an edition that favors durable troops as the unit of choice. Also it has absolutley no anti-air. This is a major sticking point for any 6th army. Coteaz's unit can't even use divination to shoot at flyers with its best weapons because you chose plasma cannons on the servitors.

Hell this army is undone by just a few lucky lascannon or multimelta shots...

So I was reading through the topic about cheese and then I made this list and looked at it and felt ashamed, but here it is:

You should be ashamed of this list, but not for the reasons you think.

Maybe it's a fun list to lose with?

 Ghostcat wrote:

 Sorginak wrote:

Essentially The Grand Master and Librarian with Divination go in the crusader with the larger squad of crusaders/assassins, the Tech-marine and smaller squad in the other one. Coteaz with the plasma Squad in bolstered ruins rolling prescience + one more divination roll, the psykers are there as well with the Librarian supplying the shrouding the land raider and Coteaz' squad near by (ready to jump out and assault or ready for the Librarian to embark and come with). Hopefully the Divination Librarian gets the 4++ to pass onto the Land Raider and then the squad when it plans to assault. The Grand master can have the crusader outflank or scout and if it looks like it might be a better idea I'll move the smaller land raider up the field if objectives are an issue, or turn them into scoring units and place all the objectives right next to them.

I believe your strategy is built on the false premise that Land Raiders are dedicated transports in the GK codex. They are not. This means your grand strategy abilities that grant scout do not work with them. In fact, you can't even use the special rule on the henchmen or independent characters, so I don't understand why the grand master is even there.

Knowing your opponent is a huge part of of the art of war,

So is knowing the rules, ya know?

This army is not only not cheesey in the WAAC sense, it's not even slightly competitive. Frankly, it's not a "good" list at all and I would categorize it as the "Big Shiny HQ" trap that new players frequently fall into when they begin to play 40k.

This list is pretty static, aside from the first turn move you will likely get from coteaz your land raider's will be blocked by any mobile or sacrifical move. Remember movment happens before shooting land raider and cock-blocking is an easy tactic for most armies that can sacrifice a unit or two. In an army with this few units, it's a certainty that your opponent can afford to sacrifice units to keep your land raider from delivering its payload where it needs to go.

Coteaz & his henchmen is an "immovable object" unit? Maybe to conventional shooting, but that unit is going to be destroyed by any unit with flamers. Heldrakes are going to love the hubris of that line of thinking. Bikes with flamers, hell any mobile unit with template weapons...

This army is top heavy in HQ choices in an edition that favors durable troops as the unit of choice. Also it has absolutley no anti-air. This is a major sticking point for any 6th army. Coteaz's unit can't even use divination to shoot at flyers with its best weapons because you chose plasma cannons on the servitors.

Hell this army is undone by just a few lucky lascannon or multimelta shots...

So I was reading through the topic about cheese and then I made this list and looked at it and felt ashamed, but here it is:

You should be ashamed of this list, but not for the reasons you think.

Maybe it's a fun list to lose with?

First off, thank you for reminding me that I can't use Grand Strategy on vehicles, just walkers.

Secondly, don't be a troll. You've missed out on the entire conversation and as I stated many times it is not designed to be a competitive list and I even said I should post it in the silly list section, which you clearly missed since you are just looking to come in all, "And another thing!"